Excavating/grading question

[Jpcjguy]

Sounds like you have the plan. If you can operate a wheeled loader, rent it. You can dig out large rocks if and when encountered. If there a school bus sized rocks, leave them there for landscape appeal. An excavator would get in the way in my opinion. To finish the grade, you could use the tractor guy to do that.

I have thought of that. Do most of the digging myself and get it roughly where I want it and then have a professional do the finish work.

 

[Jpcjguy]

Two things that I have learned by building a road, excavating for a barn and clearing fields that I suggest you meditate on:

1. What look like modest changes in grade can involve HUGE amounts of dirt. It is easy to underestimate how much dirt you will need to move.

2. It is all about cycle time. That long ride between A & B is going to eat up a LOT of seat time. Give careful thought to how long it takes to move each bucket of dirt. You might be near the break point of using a dump truck to save on tractor time.

I live northwest of Richmond and have learned that Virginia has some righteous rocks, as they say the best laid plans "gang aft aigly"

Excellent points. I am getting more quotes on the work also.
I am in agreement in with #2. It might make sense to have a dump truck rather than have the tractor go back and forth 1000 times.
I see that you are in Goochland - so am I! I am in Manakin Sabot about 13 minutes from Short Pump mall.

 

[s219]

One thing to mention up front is that since you're disturbing more than 2500 sq.ft, you will need to get a land disturbing permit (VA state rule) and that means running a site plan by your local environmental or building department and dealing with erosion/sedimentation countermeasures ($$$). Since you're potentially altering drainage to neighboring properties, I suspect the permit won't come easy. There may be an easement for that drainage area passing through the neighbors property, but that just means they can't block it. It doesn't mean you can do stuff upstream that would alter drainage to downstream properties.

I think it would be a mistake to fill in the swale. It's not just a drainage point for the tree area, it's a drainage point for all the land around it (whether there is visible surface water or not -- that's a common misconception). Filling it and putting a pipe in will only allow drainage from the tree area, and all other existing flows will just collect and turn your fill into mud and create problems later on. To really do it right, you'd need slotted pipe, stone, and drainage fabric, and that is a big project.

If i was me, I would leave that swale just the way it is and simply drop a short section (15-20') of pipe where the driveway is to cross over, creating a culvert there. You can get a 20' section of 12-15" black poly pipe for cheap, and it will support a cement truck with 12" fill cover. That way you are not screwing up the swale or altering any current drainage.

That size building will require a permit in VA, which means you will potentially be having inspectors on the property who can see other violations regarding land disturbance, drainage, erosion/sedimentation, etc. I had to get all my ducks in a row with that stuff just to build a 20x20 barn.

I don't want to sound like the sheriff, but I have become very familiar with all these rules after having built a home and barn, working with a developer, and becoming the land agent for our subdivision. I see a few red flags in your plan. My land is zoned agricultural (A-1) which makes life a little easier, but there are still plenty of rules/regs for non-agricultural use on that land, basically to protect my neighbors from me doing stupid things with drainage and land disturbance. In developed subdivisions with neighbors, things are even more restrictive because of architectural and property line rules.

Good luck!

 

[Jpcjguy]

One thing to mention up front is that since you're disturbing more than 2500 sq.ft, you will need to get a land disturbing permit (VA state rule) and that means running a site plan by your local environmental or building department and dealing with erosion/sedimentation countermeasures ($$$). Since you're potentially altering drainage to neighboring properties, I suspect the permit won't come easy. There may be an easement for that drainage area passing through the neighbors property, but that just means they can't block it. It doesn't mean you can do stuff upstream that would alter drainage to downstream properties.

I think it would be a mistake to fill in the swale. It's not just a drainage point for the tree area, it's a drainage point for all the land around it (whether there is visible surface water or not -- that's a common misconception). Filling it and putting a pipe in will only allow drainage from the tree area, and all other existing flows will just collect and turn your fill into mud and create problems later on. To really do it right, you'd need slotted pipe, stone, and drainage fabric, and that is a big project.

If i was me, I would leave that swale just the way it is and simply drop a short section (15-20') of pipe where the driveway is to cross over, creating a culvert there. You can get a 20' section of 12-15" black poly pipe for cheap, and it will support a cement truck with 12" fill cover. That way you are not screwing up the swale or altering any current drainage.

That size building will require a permit in VA, which means you will potentially be having inspectors on the property who can see other violations regarding land disturbance, drainage, erosion/sedimentation, etc. I had to get all my ducks in a row with that stuff just to build a 20x20 barn.

I don't want to sound like the sheriff, but I have become very familiar with all these rules after having built a home and barn, working with a developer, and becoming the land agent for our subdivision. I see a few red flags in your plan. My land is zoned agricultural (A-1) which makes life a little easier, but there are still plenty of rules/regs for non-agricultural use on that land, basically to protect my neighbors from me doing stupid things with drainage and land disturbance. In developed subdivisions with neighbors, things are even more restrictive because of architectural and property line rules.

Good luck!

Thanks for bringing that up. I am in Goochland county and have spoken and sent a lot of the above pics to one of the civil/environmental engineers for the county and he gave no indications that I would have a problem. This is what is posted on the county website also:
"The Department’s Environmental & Land Development component administers Virginia Department of Conservation and Recreation [DCR] land disturbing regulations, provides inspection services and monitors compliance of land disturbing activity, and reviews land development proposals, including traffic ways.

DCR regulations state, in part, that land disturbing over 10,000 square feet requires a permit with some noted exceptions such as agricultural clearing, home landscaping, and utility work. "

I will confirm, in person, with the county again what my plans are and make sure everything is ok before moving forward. As you stated, I might just do the drop a small section of pipe for the driveway crossover. I am currently exploring all possibilities taking into consideration - rules and regulations, costs, feasibility, etc.

I appreciate everyone's feedback!

 

[s219]

There were some changes in 2013, and VA DEQ now oversees many land disturbance activities (my county website still points to DCR with some broken links).

You are right, you may be subject to the 10,000 sq.ft limit in that location, as I believe the 2,500 sq.ft limit is associated with watersheds and Chesapeake Bay areas (which covers my entire county here on the other side of Richmond from you).

 

[Jpcjguy]

There were some changes in 2013, and VA DEQ now oversees many land disturbance activities (my county website still points to DCR with some broken links).

You are right, you may be subject to the 10,000 sq.ft limit in that location, as I believe the 2,500 sq.ft limit is associated with watersheds and Chesapeake Bay areas (which covers my entire county here on the other side of Richmond from you).

That makes sense. Goochland has been pretty laid back on most things I have inquired about so far - only lived here for 1 year - coming from Richmond city and Henrico county.

 

[gwiley]

That makes sense. Goochland has been pretty laid back on most things I have inquired about so far - only lived here for 1 year - coming from Richmond city and Henrico county.

I have found Goochland to be super easy to deal with for home owners and non-commercial land owners. One of the nice things about living in a sparsely populated county is that the county government is approachable. When I excavated for the shop on my property a few years ago they just asked me to install a silt fence

 

[Jpcjguy]

I have found Goochland to be super easy to deal with for home owners and non-commercial land owners. One of the nice things about living in a sparsely populated county is that the county government is approachable. When I excavated for the shop on my property a few years ago they just asked me to install a silt fence

Good to hear! - Gwiley - want to come play with your Bobcat?

 

[gwiley]

Good to hear! - Gwiley - want to come play with your Bobcat?

It is fun to have an excuse to run the machine isn't it? I just bought a set of scarifier shanks from agri supply to add to my box blade - the driveway took a real beating this winter. I am hoping to get those added this weekend so that I can clean up the pot holes before one of them swallows the corolla.

I second the idea of not filling the swale. I buy culvert from Southern States in Goochland Courthouse (they are only about 10 miles from my place), the usually stock all the common sizes including collars.

I would be that you would be happier leaving the swale in place and having fill trucked in to level off that other area.

 

[Jpcjguy]

It is fun to have an excuse to run the machine isn't it? I just bought a set of scarifier shanks from agri supply to add to my box blade - the driveway took a real beating this winter. I am hoping to get those added this weekend so that I can clean up the pot holes before one of them swallows the corolla.

I second the idea of not filling the swale. I buy culvert from Southern States in Goochland Courthouse (they are only about 10 miles from my place), the usually stock all the common sizes including collars.

I would be that you would be happier leaving the swale in place and having fill trucked in to level off that other area.

Probably a good reason I don't own one - I would be "volunteering" all over the place just to play with the machine! ha!
Thanks for the heads up on where to get culvert.

 

[CDN Farm Boy]

I've been following this from the start and it sound like an interesting and large project. By large I'm comparing in relevance to your property size. Perhaps it is just me but your plans seem a bit convoluted and lacking focus.

Could you clarify what your main goals are and their priority? Culverts and retaining walls are secondary to the main goals. Are you looking to: make a flat driveway to the future shop? Get rid of the swale 'cause you don't like the dip in the side yard? Make a flat backyard? Something else?

 

[Jpcjguy]

I've been following this from the start and it sound like an interesting and large project. By large I'm comparing in relevance to your property size. Perhaps it is just me but your plans seem a bit convoluted and lacking focus.

Could you clarify what your main goals are and their priority? Culverts and retaining walls are secondary to the main goals. Are you looking to: make a flat driveway to the future shop? Get rid of the swale 'cause you don't like the dip in the side yard? Make a flat backyard? Something else?

You nailed pretty much all of it. It all starts with creating a "dip-less" driveway from the road to where the garage would be (shed in the pics). Based on that - I need fill dirt.
So looking around, I came up with the idea of doing some leveling of the backyard - it is less than ideal - not horrible though. Granted, the amount of dirt coming from the backyard would exceed the amount I need to just do a driveway. So it expanded into "filling the dip" across the property from the tree line. The added benefit of this is a more level surface ( not perfect but better) - which would be great for soccer, football, etc. I have identical 5yr old twin boys and a 20 month old daughter.
Yes - the project grew considerably, but I am looking at the property as a whole - doing things in stages means trucking dirt in and out, more time as a muddy mess, more $$ for getting heavy equipment multiple times.
Convoluted and overkill? possibly - won't argue that. However, if I can do it once and we (including the wife) are happy, I think we could save $$ over the long term (yes more $$ at first)
Sort of like the time and $$ I spent on upgrading my stock Jeep CJ7 axles, then upgrading to Dana 44s, and now I have one tons (Dana 60s). Should have bit the bullet and gone to them right out of the gate - would have saved time and $$.

 

[CDN Farm Boy]

Thanks for the clarification and I now got a chance to look at the pics on my computer rather than my phone so I can see the detail better.

Since the main goal is the 'flat' driveway, as someone else suggested, why not toss in a culvert and a few loads of stone and call it a day? Is the excavated material even suitable for base under the new driveway? I don't disagree that you need fill but do you need fill dirt or fill rock? You'll also presumably have a bunch of topsoil stripped off from when the drive goes in that will need to go somewhere. Unless you were just going to add stone on top of the existing grade in which case you'll need more dirt to grade up from the lawn to the new height of the stone. If filling and grading the dip were done at the same time as excavating the back yard, starting at the high point of the back, you could just cut as deep as you have room for fill and stop at that point.

What is the total depth of fill from existing grade in the bottom of the dip to the top of the proposed driveway?

Since the fill in the dip will have to taper out to nothing by the time you get to the trees, whatever is used for culvert will need to terminate somehow at the surface -- pretty tough to do with a 12" culvert. From what I can see, if it were me, I'd fill the dip as much as I could while keeping just enough surface slope that water will run off and over the drive and not use a culvert at all. As you say there is essentially never any water running there anyway so for the odd time it does, just let it run over the lane...it's not like it's a creek going to wash it away. OR use a 6" perforated tile with filter cloth for the entire 80' and let it terminate underground but there still need to be surface slope which brings me back to the previous option unless you want some sort of a sewer grate at the high end of the culvert

I'm guessing the new shop is for the Jeep/truck/trailer? I'm sure it can handle a dip in the road. :laughing: Remember, you don't need an Ultra4 buggy to run the local hydro lines (not that it wouldn't be fun though.....)

 

[paulharvey]

Excellent points. I am getting more quotes on the work also.
I am in agreement in with #2. It might make sense to have a dump truck rather than have the tractor go back and forth 1000 times.
I see that you are in Goochland - so am I! I am in Manakin Sabot about 13 minutes from Short Pump mall.

A pan or scrapper would be great if the rocks are bad. They do make 3 yard pan scrapers for tractors; but you need a man of a tractor to pull them; not a UT.

 

[paulharvey]

If Dave's numbers are correct and I'm sure they are, he's a smart guy, that puts your contractor quote of $15,000 at $40.54 a yard. WTH?

$6.00 per CY should be pretty close if your not looking for extensive fine (+/- a tenth of a foot) grading.

 

[GolfAddict]

I've always understood that it's a really bad thing to run back and forth over your drain field repeatedly, especially with anything very heavy. You mentioned your lines are really deep (deeper than I've ever heard of), but I would sure look into that more.

 

[Jpcjguy]

So I went by Sunbelt rentals yesterday and showed them a bunch of pics of what I wanted to do. Here is a list of equipment they recommended - taking into account max weight that I will be using my 10k trailer for pickup/drop off to save money.
4 yard tandem axle dump trailer
T650 bobcat with loader bucket and toothbar
Bobcat E32 mini excavator with 20" bucket
Harley power rack for skidsteer

All the above for 1 week rental (7 days) with taxes, rental protection plan, etc. is $3440.
I am also getting 2 more quotes - 1 today and 1 tomorrow.

 

[Egon]

Do you have other operators?

 

[Jpcjguy]

Do you have other operators?

I am sure getting some friends to help will not be an issu. or I will make my brother in law help me!

 

[Citydude]

So I went by Sunbelt rentals yesterday and showed them a bunch of pics of what I wanted to do. Here is a list of equipment they recommended - taking into account max weight that I will be using my 10k trailer for pickup/drop off to save money. 4 yard tandem axle dump trailer T650 bobcat with loader bucket and toothbar Bobcat E32 mini excavator with 20" bucket Harley power rack for skidsteer All the above for 1 week rental (7 days) with taxes, rental protection plan, etc. is $3440. I am also getting 2 more quotes - 1 today and 1 tomorrow.

That sounds like fun to me. I'd come help if you paid for airfare, hotel, meals and an occasional cocktail.....