Farmer killed on road

Soundguy · Oct 27, 2003

( Is it legal for someone to simply stand in the middle of a public highway with a stop sign? What constitutes a )

Around here.. even if a pedestrian is 'j-walking' .. the law gives them the right of way and you are sopposed to stop for them. Kinda like water-way rules... smallest engine /boat gets the right of way...

Soundguy

Bird · Oct 27, 2003

( I've heard that a lot of cop cars parked beside the road with lights flashing (perhaps while giving out a ticket) get rear ended for that very reason.. people tend to steer toward where they are looking. Don't know if this is true.. any of you law enforecement folks out there had problems with this? )

Yep, it's true. Using amber lights to the rear instead of red, blue, or white helped a lot, but there continues to be a number of them hit from the rear by high speed and/or drunk drivers.

I also occasionally see an officer standing between his car and a car he has stopped, and could never understand an officer doing that. One of the things I learned in the police academy nearly 40 years ago was about the number of officers who've had their legs broken (or worse) when someone hits and knocks their car into the car they had stopped.

Junkman · Oct 27, 2003

( I also occasionally see an officer standing between his car and a car he has stopped, and could never understand an officer doing that. One of the things I learned in the police academy nearly 40 years ago was about the number of officers who've had their legs broken (or worse) when someone hits and knocks their car into the car they had stopped. )

There is a big difference between 40 years ago when you were in training and now. A lot of the new guys don't want to learn from the old timers and seem to have to learn the lessons the hard way. Some are stubborn and some are obstinate, and others just don't know any better. Today, it seems that most of them have the attitude of "I know it all!"...... It is a hard job, and sometimes a thankless one also, but that is no reason not to learn from others past experiences. Life is too short to learn everything the hard way........ not enough time.....

Trev · Oct 27, 2003

( Yep, it's true. Using amber lights to the rear instead of red, blue, or white helped a lot, but there continues to be a number of them hit from the rear by high speed and/or drunk drivers.)

I wouldn't think you guys would be very comfortable standing next to the pulled over car, either.

I'm not sure how far off-topic this is, since we're talking safety, being seen etc., but one question: when an officer pulls behind a moving car and turns on his lights, I would assume what they are telling you is pull over *at the next safe place to do so* rather than stop immediately. If they wanted immediate, they'd hit the siren also? Otherwise, slowing down, putting on the right turn signal, and perhaps even going an extra few hundred feet to where there's a store to pull into might be appreciated by the officer? Or no?

I know.. it's probably one of those common-sense things.. except it might be wrong.

I don't know a good place to ask officers this sort of thing except to call their station, and I presume they get enough phone calls already. Is there something like a citizen/police FAQ someplace that talks about these common but rarely discussed little questions?

Thanks,
Bob

Boxman · Oct 27, 2003

( ( Is it legal for someone to simply stand in the middle of a public highway with a stop sign? What constitutes a )

Around here.. even if a pedestrian is 'j-walking' .. the law gives them the right of way and you are sopposed to stop for them. Kinda like water-way rules... smallest engine /boat gets the right of way...

Soundguy )

Yes, but the unwritten law of gross tonnage is always in effect...

boxman

dmccarty · Oct 27, 2003

Bird,

Or when you see a traffic stop and the patrol car's wheels are
not turned to the right....

Later,
Dan

Bird · Oct 27, 2003

( I would assume what they are telling you is pull over *at the next safe place to do so* rather than stop immediately )

Actually, Bob, in Texas at least, it makes no difference whether the police car is using both the flashing lights and the siren, or whether only one of those is being used, but as a practical matter, most officers use only the lights to start with, and then use the siren also if the lights alone do not get the other driver's attention. As far as I know, the following is the only "law" on this topic in Texas:

( 545.156. Vehicle Approached by Authorized Emergency Vehicle

(a) On the immediate approach of an authorized emergency vehicle using audible and visual signals that meet the requirements of Sections 547.305 and 547.702, or of a police vehicle lawfully using only an audible signal, an operator, unless otherwise directed by a police officer, shall:

(1) yield the right-of-way;

(2) immediately drive to a position parallel to and as close as possible to the right-hand edge or curb of the roadway clear of any intersection; and

(3) stop and remain standing until the authorized emergency vehicle has passed.

(b) This section does not exempt the operator of an authorized emergency vehicle from the duty to drive with due regard for the safety of all persons using the highway.

Acts 1995, 74th Leg., ch. 165, § 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1995.
)

In other words, the same law applies whether yielding for an emergency vehicle passing, or being stopped by an officer.

( Otherwise, slowing down, putting on the right turn signal, and perhaps even going an extra few hundred feet to where there's a store to pull into might be appreciated by the officer? Or no? )

That is commonly done. There are actually some business owners who will object if an officer comes onto their property to write a traffic citation, and therefore, some departments have a policy of asking a violator to drive back out onto the street and stop at the curb before the officer talks to them about the violation, so it's a little hard to say. Personally, if stopped, I would get out of the street into big parking lots, such as Wal-Mart, shopping centers, etc., but would not turn into a service station, small convenience store parking, etc. In other words, I would not pull onto private property where there would be any possibility of anyone even thinking that I might be blocking other traffic from coming and going to or from that property. I've no doubt that most, if not all, officers appreciate it when a person being stopped uses the turn signals, and moves as far to the right as possible and continues to a place he can get out of the traffic lanes before stopping. (I've actually had people stop in the middle lane of Interstate Freeways /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif).

( probably one of those common-sense things.. except it might be wrong )

It would certainly seem to be, but since police officers are humans, too, not all of them always use common sense. Fortunately, most do. Personally, I would slow down, but not stop until I could get out of the traffic lane at the curb or on the shoulder of the road, but if there's no such place in sight (such as on a narrow one or two lane road with borrow ditches on each side) and the officer decided to use his siren, also, then I'd go ahead and stop there as far to the right as I could safely get. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Bird · Oct 27, 2003

Yeah, Dan, if the patrol should get rearended, it would be nice if it went to the right instead of back out into the traffic lanes, wouldn't it? /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Trev · Oct 27, 2003

Thanks for the detailed reply, Bird!

Things like that help. I try to be a good citizen, and I know that ignorance of the law is no excuse, but there are always a bunch of little things like this that it would be nice to pick officer's brains about. It would also probably be a full time job to learn all of the laws, and even then there are the fuzzy areas. It's great getting feedback from people who actually do this kind of work.

I wish there were a forum somewhere in which citizens could talk to officers and clear up misunderstandings, clarify what certain things mean, determine when an officer might want assistance and when it would be inappropriate to offer, etc..

Perfect example.. it hadn't even occured to me that a store owner might object.. but now that you point it out it seems obvious.

If you or any other law enforcement person here knows of such a place, I'd greatly appreciate a link to it. It would maybe be a good P.R. thing for a police department to set up if there isn't one. Or maybe just a law enforcement board which would tolerate civilians lurking?

Thanks again,
Bob

Bird · Oct 27, 2003

Bob, I don't know of such a web site (of course I also don't know that they don't exist either). A lot of departments have a "Citizen's Police Academy" for those who want to attend, then there are Neighborhood Watch programs, and things like that. Trouble is, you have to attend those things and they're time consuming, so the majority of people never get involved, and I can certainly understand that.

F350Lawman · Oct 27, 2003

The single biggest thing they should teach people (after safety issues)when they get there license is to MOVE their vehicles if at all possible after an accident.

How many times have I seen 2 or 3 motorists out of their vehicles in the center lanes of a freewyay inspecting their cracked taillight. Cars are zooming by at 75mph and they are inspecting for paint damage. How about when they cause an hour long delay at rush hour on a 3 lane bridge because they have not 1... but 2 lanes closed off due to this nonsense. /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

The police ARE NOT going to do an accident investigation unless someone is dead, likely to die or some other special circumstance(DWI etc.) We just write "he said, she said" and any witness staements on the report and let the insurance comapny battle it out. We were even instructed not to draw conclusions or issue tickets at accident scenes unless it is 100% clear cut. After all we weren't there and drawing an eroneous conclusion really screws one of the parties so you BETTER be right.

You can't blame the motorist because nobody ever told them. You will even get some knucklehead cops who start taking the report in a bad area. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif That really steams me when I am waiting in the trafic jam.

This is actually very topical because it's raining cats and dogs, with high winds and I have to travel tot he city tonight. I ahve a 50/50 chance of being stuck in the above mess /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

cowboydoc · Oct 27, 2003

I almost got taken to jail one time for not immediately pulling over. It was in town on a four lane road with absolutely no place to pull over at all. It was one of those deals where it used to be two lane and was now four lane. I waited until we got about a mile down the road and there was a shoulder to pull onto. The officers literally had their guns drawn and over the speaker on their vehicle had me get out and come to the back of the vehicle and put my hands on the car. I tryed to tell him I was just trying to find a safe place to pull over. He said it didn't matter when an officer put his lights on that meant they wanted you to pull over immediately no matter the circumstances. He said he could have given me a ticket for not immediately pulling over. He had stopped me because my tag had expired. But I wasn't over the 30 days yet so I didn't get a ticket.

Trev · Oct 27, 2003

( The single biggest thing they should teach people (after safety issues)when they get there license is to MOVE their vehicles if at all possible after an accident.)

Yeah, we all see that sort of thing.. and I think most people are conditioned by TV to "never disturb the crime scene" kind of thinking.

( You can't blame the motorist because nobody ever told them.)

Exactly my point.. although one *would* hope that common sense would come into play to some extent (I'm still shuddering at Bird's story of the guy he pulled over who simply stopped right in the middle lane of a freeway! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif)

I could think of dozens of other questions I'd love to ask you guys, but I don't want Muhammed booting me off the board for turning this into a police forum. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Seems like more opportunity for people like me to talk to people like you would help us *all* out. Of course it could turn into a furball if we got some idiots berating police for issuing speeding tickets or something. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Trev · Oct 27, 2003

( I waited until we got about a mile down the road and there was a shoulder to pull onto. The officers literally had their guns drawn and over the speaker on their vehicle had me get out and come to the back of the vehicle and put my hands on the car.)

Headlines: "CowboyDoc leads police on wild chase.. finally surrenders after being apprehended.." ?

Did they hit the siren?

Having a gun aimed at you is an unusual experience, isn't it? At least for most of us! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif The only time it happened to me, I was a dumb kid who was standing outside a bank waiting for it to open in 5 minutes so I could deposit a check or something. A couple guys got out of an armored truck with these huge bags full (presumably) of money. Without even thinking, I reached to open the bank door for them.. just out of courtesy.. you know, "Here, let me get that for you."

OOPSEY!! We all chuckled afterward, but that guy was a fast draw! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

F350Lawman · Oct 27, 2003

Might be better idea to pull over sooner. I too have gone on a bit before pulling over to a safer spot... but a mile sounds a little extreme.

Could have been real ugly if they were pulling you over not because of an expired tag but because your vehicle matched the descrition of one used in a crime or that was stolen. Your driving for a minute or two refusing to stop, they're getting all jacked up, nervous rookie cop, their imaginations start to wonder as to WHY you're not stopping, etc., etc. Could be a recipe for disaster.

At least they let you go with no tickets. You must be some smooth talker Doc /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

cowboydoc · Oct 27, 2003

Traffic was going at 65 mph so it was less than a minute before I pulled over. They never did put on the siren. They just had the lights.

F350Lawman · Oct 27, 2003

One minute at 65mph....

OK, well that's a lot better sounding. I sort of pictured you going slower and it dragging out longer.

I'm sure you understand what I am saying though, even a minute can be a tense, long time if you're wondering why the motorist isn't stopping.

I just figure cops make mistakes and misinterpret things just like everyone else so I try to make their decision making process as easy as possible. I get pulled over from time to time and I still get a little nervous. I stop the car, shut it off, turn on dome lights , both hands on the wheel, look straight ahead, etc.

I've have however goofed as well . Once I thought that the police vehicle wasn't following me because he wasn't gaining and was WAY back. I drove for quite awhile at a high speed. When I realized and told the officer he laughed but it was embarrassing for me.

bgott · Oct 27, 2003

I've had that happen. The next time I got pulled over I stopped in the lane and got reamed out about that, too. It's the pr**k factor, they have a badge so they can be one if they want. /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

F350Lawman · Oct 27, 2003

Did you get a summons?

Bird · Oct 28, 2003

( The single biggest thing they should teach people (after safety issues)when they get there license is to MOVE their vehicles if at all possible after an accident. )

I may be wrong, but if my memory serves me right, back in the Dark Ages, when some of us got our first drivers license, we were taught to NOT move the vehicles after an accident until the police got there. Of course, things such as freeways, Interstate highways, etc. didn't exist. So now, while a lot of people don't know it, Texas law includes:

( (b) If an accident occurs on a main lane, ramp, shoulder, median, or adjacent area of a freeway in a metropolitan area and each vehicle involved can be normally and safely driven, each operator shall move the operator's vehicle as soon as possible to a designated accident investigation site, if available, a location on the frontage road, the nearest suitable cross street, or other suitable location to complete the requirements of Section 550.023 and minimize interference with freeway traffic. )

Common sense?

( police ARE NOT going to do an accident investigation unless . . . )

It's accident "reporting" not "investigating", as you say unless it's a really serious one.

( You will even get some knucklehead cops who start taking the report in a bad area. )

I don't think officers in this day and age are given any instruction at all in directing traffic and they simply don't know what to do or how to promptly clear the road. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif