Finally Building my Backhoe

[NormL]

You're welcome, and the other nice thing about hardlines is they take up less space, which is related to your desire to reduce hose clutter.

Exactly! And I guess there's a slight difference between the meaning of "solid" and "hard" lines, chuckle. Where the clutter gets really bad is where the lines come together into that array of from four to six valves. On my build, that's where the biggest issue with clutter will be.

 

[NormL]

It's Google Sketchup. It's free... Google SketchUp

To me it's more intuitive than CAD programs that I have tried. The nice thing about sketchup is that there is a lot of free help on youtube and other places on the web... including TBN. I haven't tried calculations. It may be built into the program or it may be a part of some of the plugins that are available for Sketchup.

It's worth a try. It's free, so you're not out much if you end up not liking it.

I had a look at SketchUp last night. Neat program! However, I'm more a paper, pencil, and ruler or "got it in my head" kinda guy at this point. SketchUp is going to take a bit of study and practice before I can use it. I'll probably use it when I plan out a summer shop area in the Quonset. Thanks for the link!

 

[rcurrie]

I got my boom, stick and bucket cylinders from Princess auto, outrigger cyls are used tie rod cyls from farmer brother inlaw. I haven't got a valve yet but I am going to try to find a joystick valve when I do.

 

[john m]

i didn`t have a chance to see all the other posts on this thread, i`m building a loader for my tractor now. i saw in your pic. of your bucket you have a little red tool box on your floor and i have the same one, except i stepped on mine and broke the lid off. if you use a 7018 rod it is a hydrogen rod and it makes a real strong weld. i`m not a professional welder either, that`s why they make grinders.

 

[NormL]

Iplayfarmer & mjncad:

I took a closer look at a couple of junkers I have on the yard. One is a moco that shredded an expensive belt and the other is a bale loader that the previous owner left behind. Lo and behold, they each have fairly long runs of "hardline". The lines on the moco are slightly smaller than those on the bale loader, but I wonder about the system pressure they were designed for. The moco is single acting and the bale loader looks like it is double acting. Incidentally, the hydraulic system is mostly intact on the bale loader and I wonder if the PTO driven pump from it could be mounted to my tractor and run the backhoe with it. I have plans for the single acting pump too, but that wont be for this project.

So what do you think? Would the lines from the mower/conditioner handle the pressure? I will have to remove the pump and test the output. I may have to check with the manufacturer of the machine and see if they can provide any info. Too bad the cylinders on the loader are too big and long. I'll hang onto them anyway. They look to be the right size for the FEL on my Oliver 550.

 

[NormL]

I got my boom, stick and bucket cylinders from Princess auto, outrigger cyls are used tie rod cyls from farmer brother inlaw. I haven't got a valve yet but I am going to try to find a joystick valve when I do.

When you refer to your backhoe as "subframe" is that the same as a tow-able? If it is then what you and I are building could be roughly the same size. How far do the cylinders you picked up at PA extend? I can still tinker with the plans for mine to allow for the amount of extension on the cylinders I finally use.

 

[dcyrilc]

When you refer to your backhoe as "subframe" is that the same as a tow-able? If it is then what you and I are building could be roughly the same size. How far do the cylinders you picked up at PA extend? I can still tinker with the plans for mine to allow for the amount of extension on the cylinders I finally use.

Tractor mounted backhoes come in two basic types. 3PH mounted or subframe mounted.

A subframe backhoe mounts to the back of the tractor via a subframe which attaches along the mainframe of the tractor and usually extends from the front to the rear of the tractor to provide additional strength by distributing the stress along the entire length of the tractor.

Long winded I know, but I think it gives a fairly accurate description.

 

[NormL]

Tractor mounted backhoes come in two basic types. 3PH mounted or subframe mounted.

A subframe backhoe mounts to the back of the tractor via a subframe which attaches along the mainframe of the tractor and usually extends from the front to the rear of the tractor to provide additional strength by distributing the stress along the entire length of the tractor.

Long winded I know, but I think it gives a fairly accurate description.

OK, that clears up my confusion. You've seen what I write so you know long winded works for me, chuckle. If I find that my backhoe is not mounted securely enough I will have to fit a subframe to it. Would not be too hard, just extra effort and steel.

 

[dcyrilc]

OK, that clears up my confusion. You've seen what I write so you know long winded works for me, chuckle. If I find that my backhoe is not mounted securely enough I will have to fit a subframe to it. Would not be too hard, just extra effort and steel.

Here's a nice thread that dfkrug did on backhoe subframes. Very interesting reading. Actually, all his stuff is quite good.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/build-yourself/171760-how-build-your-own-custom.html

 

[mjncad]

Iplayfarmer & mjncad:

I took a closer look at a couple of junkers I have on the yard. One is a moco that shredded an expensive belt and the other is a bale loader that the previous owner left behind. Lo and behold, they each have fairly long runs of "hardline". The lines on the moco are slightly smaller than those on the bale loader, but I wonder about the system pressure they were designed for. The moco is single acting and the bale loader looks like it is double acting. Incidentally, the hydraulic system is mostly intact on the bale loader and I wonder if the PTO driven pump from it could be mounted to my tractor and run the backhoe with it. I have plans for the single acting pump too, but that wont be for this project.

So what do you think? Would the lines from the mower/conditioner handle the pressure? I will have to remove the pump and test the output. I may have to check with the manufacturer of the machine and see if they can provide any info. Too bad the cylinders on the loader are too big and long. I'll hang onto them anyway. They look to be the right size for the FEL on my Oliver 550.

It's not so much the machine the hardlines come off; but what pressure they are rated for. If you can get info from the manufacturer, that would save you a bunch of guessing. If you intend to reuse hardlines, you will have to make sure they are clean, clean, clean inside and out before you braze on the ends assuming you are using that method. How big in diameter are these hardlines you intend to reuse? Just guessing mind you; but I would be surprised if you needed anything bigger than 3/8" on the supply side, and maybe 1/2" to 5/8" on the return to tank. I'm basing that guess on the sizes found on my JD 4200.

It takes a bit of hunting at the Parker web site; but download Catalog 4300 as it has a wealth of information on fittings and how to properly braze hardline end fittings or use crimp on fittings, which takes special equipment. I'd email you the catalog; but it's way too big for that.

As for the pump, again the pump's output in pressure and volume, not the machine that it came off of will determine whether it can power your backhoe. Do you have room for the pump and a separate hydraulic tank?

 

[Redneck in training]

My tractor dealer told me that if I put three point BH on my tractor the warranty will not cover broken top link. The issue is that the top link is not designed for the forces the BH can generate and it could be ripped off the tractor. Sub-frame eliminates this weak point.

 

[NormL]

It's not so much the machine the hardlines come off; but what pressure they are rated for. If you can get info from the manufacturer, that would save you a bunch of guessing. If you intend to reuse hardlines, you will have to make sure they are clean, clean, clean inside and out before you braze on the ends assuming you are using that method. How big in diameter are these hardlines you intend to reuse? Just guessing mind you; but I would be surprised if you needed anything bigger than 3/8" on the supply side, and maybe 1/2" to 5/8" on the return to tank. I'm basing that guess on the sizes found on my JD 4200.

It takes a bit of hunting at the Parker web site; but download Catalog 4300 as it has a wealth of information on fittings and how to properly braze hardline end fittings or use crimp on fittings, which takes special equipment. I'd email you the catalog; but it's way too big for that.

As for the pump, again the pump's output in pressure and volume, not the machine that it came off of will determine whether it can power your backhoe. Do you have room for the pump and a separate hydraulic tank?

sandman2234 was right when he commented early on in the newcomers forum that you people should prove to be a wealth of information. He has been spot on!!

The mower/conditioner system is single acting and used only to raise and lower the header and the reel. I don't expect much for volume or pressure from that system. Those lines look to be about 5/16". I'd have to remove one to make sure. The lines on the bale loader are larger and are likely to be the 3/8" you think would be the maximum I should need. I could use those and still save on space, even if I decrease the diameter to 5/16" or even 1/4" when I go to the flex line.

Looking at the pump on the loader, I note that the speed it runs at was slowed down using sprocket and chain drive. The PTO speed would have been 540 rpm max and I'm guessing the reduction could have been to 360 rpm or so. I'll count the teeth on the sprockets to make sure. The pump itself may have numbers and manufacturers ID that I can follow up to get specs. What is likely to happen when I run it faster than it did on the loader?

As for room for pump and tank, I'll do what I have to, to fit it all on. Since the tractor has no hydraulics at present, I will use the drive pulley that used to run the mower deck and go from there. I'll not be using the tractor for anything but to power the backhoe so anything I hang on it I'll hang it stay there.

 

[Iplayfarmer]

NormL, if you have a PTO pump, hang on to it. A PTO pump is worth a bit more than the smaller pump you'd need considering the RPM's you can run with your garden tractor. Does the moco have a pump on it? Most pumps are rated by cubic inches per revolution. For example this pump from Surplus Center is a 0.49 cu. in. pump. If you run it 1:1 with your garden tractor engine at 3,000 rpm you get 1470 cu. in./minute or 6.36 GPM. (231 cu. in./Gallon) To get the same flow from a 540 RPM PTO pump you need a 2.7 cu. in. pump (or gearing to speed it up).

As far as single acting vs. double acting, a pump is always single acting (it always pumps fluid in one direction). It's the valves and cylinders that can be double acting.

 

[NormL]

NormL, if you have a PTO pump, hang on to it. A PTO pump is worth a bit more than the smaller pump you'd need considering the RPM's you can run with your garden tractor. Does the moco have a pump on it? Most pumps are rated by cubic inches per revolution. For example this pump from Surplus Center is a 0.49 cu. in. pump. If you run it 1:1 with your garden tractor engine at 3,000 rpm you get 1470 cu. in./minute or 6.36 GPM. (231 cu. in./Gallon) To get the same flow from a 540 RPM PTO pump you need a 2.7 cu. in. pump (or gearing to speed it up).

As far as single acting vs. double acting, a pump is always single acting (it always pumps fluid in one direction). It's the valves and cylinders that can be double acting.

Wow!! The stuff I'm learning here! Yes, the moco has a pump with quite a large pulley on it. It's the kind with the reservoir mounted right on it. Don't know the manufacturer yet; it's still on the machine. The moco is a Case 950 and that probably means it will be the same pump as many other implements they make have.

I was "picking the brains" of a machinist friend in the coffee shop this morning and what he told me about single and double acting jives with what you wrote so that settles that issue for me. Incidentally, would the power steering pump from an automobile serve as a suitable hydraulic pump for a garden tractor? I would like to convert the snowblower and roto tiller on my other tractor to hydraulic lift and lower. I had thought to use the pump from the moco for that but if it should prove to be good for the BH then that's where it will go instead.

I lifted the bale loader out of the grass and mud this morning. Lots of useful looking gear under the decks. Cylinders, reservoir and filter, a cylinder that looks like it will serve to swing the boom, numerous valves to operate the ups and downs of loading platforms and hardline going all over the underside of the machine. I'm going to have a heyday salvaging the items I can use.

 

[Iplayfarmer]

Wow!! The stuff I'm learning here! Yes, the moco has a pump with quite a large pulley on it. It's the kind with the reservoir mounted right on it. Don't know the manufacturer yet; it's still on the machine. The moco is a Case 950 and that probably means it will be the same pump as many other implements they make have.

I was "picking the brains" of a machinist friend in the coffee shop this morning and what he told me about single and double acting jives with what you wrote so that settles that issue for me. Incidentally, would the power steering pump from an automobile serve as a suitable hydraulic pump for a garden tractor? I would like to convert the snowblower and roto tiller on my other tractor to hydraulic lift and lower. I had thought to use the pump from the moco for that but if it should prove to be good for the BH then that's where it will go instead.

I've seen more than a few old garden tractors with power steering pumps added for hydraulics. I don't think they'll put out enough flow for a backhoe, but for lifting snowblowers and stuff they're great.

I lifted the bale loader out of the grass and mud this morning. Lots of useful looking gear under the decks. Cylinders, reservoir and filter, a cylinder that looks like it will serve to swing the boom, numerous valves to operate the ups and downs of loading platforms and hardline going all over the underside of the machine. I'm going to have a heyday salvaging the items I can use.

Goldmine!! You may have everything you need already, including the beams. Get us picks if you can.

 

[NormL]

Goldmine!! You may have everything you need already, including the beams. Get us picks if you can.

Not sure I'll harvest beams from the loader but lots of other bits. I took some photos and sat down at this laptop to transfer them..... NO CARD READER ON THIS THING!!!! :shocked: Oh well, guess I'll have to scoot over to the wife's computer and save them on a stick and then come back to this one. Ticks me off and this is a newer machine too! Speaking of ticks, I'll have to get my wife to help me check for ticks because I found one crawling on my face while I was working out back. Hate them critters!!

 

[mjncad]

Single acting or double acting refers to how the cylinders work. Single acting cylinders are under pressure on one side of the piston to extend the rod. Gravity or other mechanical aids (e.g. springs) are used to retract the piston once pressure and flow are removed allowing the fluid to return to the tank. In this case fluid flows in both directions in the line depending on how a valve routes it. Think of a dump truck's hydraulic cylinder to lift the bed.

Double acting cylinders can be under pressure on either side of the piston. When one side is energized, the other side is de-energized allowing fluid to return to the tank, and vice-versa. Double acting cylinders are commonly used on backhoes, loaders and Top-n-Tilt systems for the three-point-hitch. Double acting cylinders are used on loaders, backhoes, etc for efficiency as gravity assist takes longer on a single acting cylinder, or won't work due to the cylinder's orientation.

Regardless of cylinder action, it has to be rated for the pressure, flow and load of the application it's to be used on.

Pictures would be of immense help too!

 

[NormL]

Single acting or double acting refers to how the cylinders work. Single acting cylinders are under pressure on one side of the piston to extend the rod. Gravity or other mechanical aids (e.g. springs) are used to retract the piston once pressure and flow are removed allowing the fluid to return to the tank. In this case fluid flows in both directions in the line depending on how a valve routes it. Think of a dump truck's hydraulic cylinder to lift the bed.

Double acting cylinders can be under pressure on either side of the piston. When one side is energized, the other side is de-energized allowing fluid to return to the tank, and vice-versa. Double acting cylinders are commonly used on backhoes, loaders and Top-n-Tilt systems for the three-point-hitch. Double acting cylinders are used on loaders, backhoes, etc for efficiency as gravity assist takes longer on a single acting cylinder, or won't work due to the cylinder's orientation.

Regardless of cylinder action, it has to be rated for the pressure, flow and load of the application it's to be used on.

Pictures would be of immense help too!

I guess where I got the idea that some pumps were for single acting and others were for double was the system on the moco. Those cylinders are all singles. On the loader, I spotted at least one single, while the rest are doubles. The single can be used as a double if the vent is plugged and a hose attached. The rest are set up as doubles. I think I've got it now, thanks.

As for pictures, I need to get a reader for this laptop. Once I have that I need to learn how to post the pix. So much for this old goat to learn - so few functioning brain cells!!

 

[Redneck in training]

Good free picture browser is here
IrfanView - Official Homepage - one of the most popular viewers worldwide

 

[mjncad]

Norm:

A buddy of mine is clearing out his library of unneeded books and he gave me this one. https://training.womack-educational...ore_Code=WE&Product_Code=011&Category_Code=TB

Today I paged through it and found it to be quite informative. I may get Volumes 2 & 3. Best of all the price is reasonable.