charlz
Elite Member
For the tougher stuff on the heat exchanger tubes etc I just use a wire brush. For the lighter stuff on the back panels, walls etc. I sometimes just use a wet rag, obviously the stove has to be pretty cold before you can do that.
Firewood versus Pellets
- Thread starter HillStreet
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forgeblast
Elite Member
Wjmst what about a brush from a cooking store, like the high temp silicon ones?
fordmantpw
Veteran Member
Hmmm, maybe a brush like you use to clean off a BBQ grille? I use a paintbrush too, but when it's hot, I just use the metal scraper that came with it to scrape the burn pot.
jymbee
Platinum Member
Very well stated-- and my thoughts precisely. I'm fortunate enough to have all the wood I could ever burn on our property along with more than enough machines & tools to process it. I also enjoy all aspects of using firewood-- from felling, to hauling, to splitting, to stacking-- not to mention it's one of main reasons to venture outside in the winter around here.
We do have a conventional oil/hot water system but with the wood boiler add-on the we use very little fuel oil all winter.
We do have a conventional oil/hot water system but with the wood boiler add-on the we use very little fuel oil all winter.
There are nice things about pellet stoves, but ... it's sort of removed from traditional rural wood heat conceptually.
The need for wood pellets adds a layer of supply and cost that you don't have much control over. In that sense, it's just another fuel like propane, electric, etc. Since I own plenty of wood for fuel (as long as I pay the taxes :laughingit seems counter-productive to invite in an uncontrollable unknown.
dave1949
Super Star Member
Thanks. Yep, there is that self-reliance thing to consider if the situation allows.
We only burn a little over one cord a year. What we need for the winter gets stacked in the attached garage. I keep the wood split a season ahead, so by the time I bring it in, it's dry and the bugs have died or deserted it except for a few spiders. Chainsaw, FEL bucket, and splitting maul. DIY firewood doesn't get much easier than that.
I would definitely gear-up if I were doing more wood. At our old house, I used ~4 cords per year and did that with a chainsaw, wheelbarrow and splitting maul. The trees were close to the house, but I don't think I be up to that anymore. :laughing:
Scooby074
Super Member
I burn solid wood in a woodstove now.
For my next place im going with some sort of wood boiler, likely one outside the house envelope, either in a garage or more likely an outbuilding.
A wood gassifier like a Froling S4 or maybe an Empyre Elite for solid wood will likely be what Id get but the Euro Chip boilers really interest me from a lack of handling standpoint. Once the wood is chipped thats it. And it can be moved by tractor bucket. No manual labour.
Froling makes a chip boiler, the T4 Overview of wood chip and shaving boiler up to 150 kW plus there are lots of other Euro makers and some NA manufacturers like Portage and Main.
PM likely would be a cheaper cost upfront, plus its components are more off the shelf and would be easier to find. Might be in the lead, although it is significantly larger than the Froling, perhaps too much so.
For my next place im going with some sort of wood boiler, likely one outside the house envelope, either in a garage or more likely an outbuilding.
A wood gassifier like a Froling S4 or maybe an Empyre Elite for solid wood will likely be what Id get but the Euro Chip boilers really interest me from a lack of handling standpoint. Once the wood is chipped thats it. And it can be moved by tractor bucket. No manual labour.
Froling makes a chip boiler, the T4 Overview of wood chip and shaving boiler up to 150 kW plus there are lots of other Euro makers and some NA manufacturers like Portage and Main.
PM likely would be a cheaper cost upfront, plus its components are more off the shelf and would be easier to find. Might be in the lead, although it is significantly larger than the Froling, perhaps too much so.
Scooby074
Super Member
The Froling T4 is the high tech option. It can burn both chip and pellet.
dave1949
Super Star Member
Jason, where would you source the chips from? Or, would you plan on making you own?
The chip bin/hopper in the first video looks susceptible to moist chips freezing into a clump that wouldn't slide down into the grate.
The chip bin/hopper in the first video looks susceptible to moist chips freezing into a clump that wouldn't slide down into the grate.
How to ensure that you have dry chips has always been my second question... My first has always been wondering how uniform the chips need to be.
If I went that route it would heat my house, garage, and possibly a small greenhouse, and the chips would mostly come from my own property.
Scooby074
Super Member
Dave,
We have over 100 acres of woodlot. I could certainly make my own IF I had a large enough tractor to run a large enough chipper to make this practical. Of course there is a cost to buying this gear... That could be a dealbreaker. One good thing is that it is easy to handle after chipping, requiring only a dump trailer to move it the 75 miles from the woodlot to my house.
In europe they have guys with large tractors/trucks with the proper chippers who function as contract chippers for your house and business. You order the hardwood, and they come chip it and blow it into your bunker. There are HUGE trailer mounted pulpwood chippers here, but to have them set up for small batch contract chipping would not be cost effective let alone the fact that they would not be easily able to get up close to your home with their equipment
The other option would be to buy woodchips that go to the local pulp mills from established producers. Is that a viable source? I dont know. I havent broached the subject with any of the local woodchip producers.
Freezing chips could be an issue in the bunkers like shown on the PM video. With an open bunker a tractor could be used to go in and break up any blockages or frozen chips. The other option would be to have the chip bunker in conditioned space. At the sawmill, The boilers were powered by hog fuel and sawdust. Freezups were pretty rare and the bunkers were basically open with no heat.
Ideally Id love to be self sufficient like this gentleman. The idea of mechanized handling is what leads me down the biomass/woodchip line of thinking.
charlz
Elite Member
The thing with the chips is you would need some type of shed or other storage to keep the weather off them so you could feed dry chips to the hopper every couple days. They said it could burn green wood but I don't think that means rain or snow melt soaked chips.
Scooby074
Super Member
The PM video says the chips were just chipped and were "Wet". Id imagine they would be very high moisture.
If I went with chips, and its a big IF, for Id have to be sure of a sustainable chip supply (Pellets could be used but would likely negate any savings of using bulk, unprocessed chips) Id likely go with an open bunker, not the closed one like on the Portage video. Id want to be able to have tractor access.
It could be as simple as a pole barn with a concrete floor or just a 3 sided concrete foundation with a simple roof, or as fancy as something like this:
dave1949
Super Star Member
Jason, Interesting. It would take some noodling to scale that to a normal home-sized system even if you were heating a 3-4 BR house, garage and non-commercial greenhouse.
Out of all the various parts and infrastructure needed, the machinery needed to make the chips efficiently does not scale down very well I wouldn't think. You would want to be handling whole logs for efficiency's sake. The storage area or bins, augers, boiler, etc. can all be sized as needed. The 75 mile distance is not your friend either.
I really don't have a good idea of what the production rate would be if I fed my 6" Wallenstein for the purpose of making chips. My guess is that is would take considerable time and diesel fuel to make very many chips. You could do better with a larger chipper, but would a 12" chipper with hydraulic feed rollers and a machine to feed it be worth it? You are getting into some expensive equipment at that point.
Honestly, if you were willing to work at a larger scale, I would look at it this way: How can I add value to relatively cheap heat? How many pounds of fish can an aquaculture operation produce utilizing low cost energy inputs, or how much can a greenhouse gross using that heat? Both of those are examples of high energy input operations. That would be leveraging or adding value to low-cost energy.
Of course, you need the fuel and whatever else, and markets to work for you geographically. Here is an example of an area organic greenhouse tomato growing operation:
Backyard Farms - Bringing New England summertime fresh tomatoes year-round from Madison, Maine
They've had some recent problems with a white fly infestation they couldn't eradicate using organic methods, but that has nothing to do with their energy. The greenhouses are basically in the middle of nowhere. Low labor, water and energy (electric) costs attracted them to that location. Their market is all of northern and mid-New England by truck.
There are other high energy operations that are smaller total operations. You should heat your home from the waste heat of wood chip-fired pizza ovens. Nirvana!:laughing:
Out of all the various parts and infrastructure needed, the machinery needed to make the chips efficiently does not scale down very well I wouldn't think. You would want to be handling whole logs for efficiency's sake. The storage area or bins, augers, boiler, etc. can all be sized as needed. The 75 mile distance is not your friend either.
I really don't have a good idea of what the production rate would be if I fed my 6" Wallenstein for the purpose of making chips. My guess is that is would take considerable time and diesel fuel to make very many chips. You could do better with a larger chipper, but would a 12" chipper with hydraulic feed rollers and a machine to feed it be worth it? You are getting into some expensive equipment at that point.
Honestly, if you were willing to work at a larger scale, I would look at it this way: How can I add value to relatively cheap heat? How many pounds of fish can an aquaculture operation produce utilizing low cost energy inputs, or how much can a greenhouse gross using that heat? Both of those are examples of high energy input operations. That would be leveraging or adding value to low-cost energy.
Of course, you need the fuel and whatever else, and markets to work for you geographically. Here is an example of an area organic greenhouse tomato growing operation:
Backyard Farms - Bringing New England summertime fresh tomatoes year-round from Madison, Maine
They've had some recent problems with a white fly infestation they couldn't eradicate using organic methods, but that has nothing to do with their energy. The greenhouses are basically in the middle of nowhere. Low labor, water and energy (electric) costs attracted them to that location. Their market is all of northern and mid-New England by truck.
There are other high energy operations that are smaller total operations. You should heat your home from the waste heat of wood chip-fired pizza ovens. Nirvana!:laughing:
Scooby074
Super Member
Dave, I still havent "crunched the numbers"
I have that woodlot and its tempting me to find a use for it. The idea of "free" (ya right!) heat from it sounds almost too good to be true.
I know I want to go with some system to reduce handling. If I stay with solid wood, that'll mean bags or wrapping on pallets. Id need a larger tractor, because my BX cant handle much in the way of stacked wood on the forks.
Chips mean that once the heavy work of chipping is done, the rest is by bucket and dump truck. No stacking, just dump into a bunker. Plus it would allow me to use "junk" wood like alder and other biomass, so in that sense its "green"
The bunker itself isnt a huge cost, just a simple pole barn with floor. Probably $3000 if I DIY. The boiler shouldnt be much more than a typical P&M boiler, so lets say $10k.
Making my own chips could be expensive, but I figure a used, Asplundh or Brush Bandit 12" self propelled chipper should be under $7000. A new larger chipper would cost at minimum that, let alone a large enough tractor to run it.
Really the only additional cost between staying with solid wood and chips would be the chipper itself assuming I still had logs delivered. If I went with softwood logs as opposed to the hardwood Im burning now, that would be additional savings. Maybe I could heat for $600/yr vs the $800+ Im paying now, of course the wood on the woodlot is "free", but Id need a larger dump trailer to move it, so there is an additional $5000 and thats not even considering the cost involved in cutting the trees. Could I cut, chip and haul a cord for $100.. I dont think I could.
So Id have to payback $7000+$5000 in order to use my "free" chips. Thats a 15 year payback assuming the chipper doesnt try to eat itself lol
Now if I can buy bulk chips for about the same as Im paying now (or likely less) then the numbers look better especially once you figure in the lack of manual labour involved in using them. There is even the possibility of getting free chips from tree services... Whether or not the chip idea pays off will come down to bulk chip cost.
The boiler and pole barn cost will be basically the same no matter which system I decide on, so one has to look only at how much more chips will cost.
I have that woodlot and its tempting me to find a use for it. The idea of "free" (ya right!) heat from it sounds almost too good to be true.
I know I want to go with some system to reduce handling. If I stay with solid wood, that'll mean bags or wrapping on pallets. Id need a larger tractor, because my BX cant handle much in the way of stacked wood on the forks.
Chips mean that once the heavy work of chipping is done, the rest is by bucket and dump truck. No stacking, just dump into a bunker. Plus it would allow me to use "junk" wood like alder and other biomass, so in that sense its "green"
The bunker itself isnt a huge cost, just a simple pole barn with floor. Probably $3000 if I DIY. The boiler shouldnt be much more than a typical P&M boiler, so lets say $10k.
Making my own chips could be expensive, but I figure a used, Asplundh or Brush Bandit 12" self propelled chipper should be under $7000. A new larger chipper would cost at minimum that, let alone a large enough tractor to run it.
Really the only additional cost between staying with solid wood and chips would be the chipper itself assuming I still had logs delivered. If I went with softwood logs as opposed to the hardwood Im burning now, that would be additional savings. Maybe I could heat for $600/yr vs the $800+ Im paying now, of course the wood on the woodlot is "free", but Id need a larger dump trailer to move it, so there is an additional $5000 and thats not even considering the cost involved in cutting the trees. Could I cut, chip and haul a cord for $100.. I dont think I could.
So Id have to payback $7000+$5000 in order to use my "free" chips. Thats a 15 year payback assuming the chipper doesnt try to eat itself lol
Now if I can buy bulk chips for about the same as Im paying now (or likely less) then the numbers look better especially once you figure in the lack of manual labour involved in using them. There is even the possibility of getting free chips from tree services... Whether or not the chip idea pays off will come down to bulk chip cost.
The boiler and pole barn cost will be basically the same no matter which system I decide on, so one has to look only at how much more chips will cost.
fordmantpw
Veteran Member
You haven't even included wear and tear on your equipment, maintenance, oil changes, fuel to haul it, insurance, taxes, etc. Just seems that you are spending a dime to save a nickel.
If you were in the US, I would recommend just putting in a geothermal (ground-source) heat pump. With the 30% tax credit, you could put one in for the cost of the boiler, and your electricity cost to run it would be right in line with the $600/yr you are looking to heat with for this system.
If you were in the US, I would recommend just putting in a geothermal (ground-source) heat pump. With the 30% tax credit, you could put one in for the cost of the boiler, and your electricity cost to run it would be right in line with the $600/yr you are looking to heat with for this system.
dave1949
Super Star Member
I have some stripped alder here. It isn't worth the fuel to cut it for firewood. Once it's dry, there is nothing to it. May as well burn a wadded-up newspaper. :laughing: Cut or chipped, I just don't see the alder I have as worth hauling.
Standing firewood trees here will bring $20-$25 per cord for the owner. Adjusted for your prices of course, the trees are worth $20/cord and all you need is a pen to sign the contract. So, even that portion isn't "free", you are consuming an asset that has value. Delivered as logs, they bring about $100 this year. For transport to your house, the $80 difference is where you can try to find savings. In relative numbers, it isn't really a question of "can you do it for $100?" You would need to beat $80 for it to make economic sense.
In the first video, the owner mentioned that hauling chips is less economical than hauling logs, I guess because they take more space volume per ton. Makes sense, so you would want to transport logs, not chips. The easiest log hauling would be a straight truck with a grapple. That gives you a grapple at each end of the operation. You still need a way to skid the tree to the truck.
How do your log sizes compare to affordable chipper sizes? For how many years can you harvest the required number of that size (or less) log?
Having the chipper at home is probably a benefit in terms of ease of maintenance and security. They do make a racket that could put close neighbors on the war path. It seems like a set-up where you blow chips into storage bin or shed would be good if you feed the boiler from that bin or shed directly.
I think it adds up to a lot of costs and labor. Whatever money you get tied up in depreciating equipment is foregoing earnings too.
Standing firewood trees here will bring $20-$25 per cord for the owner. Adjusted for your prices of course, the trees are worth $20/cord and all you need is a pen to sign the contract. So, even that portion isn't "free", you are consuming an asset that has value. Delivered as logs, they bring about $100 this year. For transport to your house, the $80 difference is where you can try to find savings. In relative numbers, it isn't really a question of "can you do it for $100?" You would need to beat $80 for it to make economic sense.
In the first video, the owner mentioned that hauling chips is less economical than hauling logs, I guess because they take more space volume per ton. Makes sense, so you would want to transport logs, not chips. The easiest log hauling would be a straight truck with a grapple. That gives you a grapple at each end of the operation. You still need a way to skid the tree to the truck.
How do your log sizes compare to affordable chipper sizes? For how many years can you harvest the required number of that size (or less) log?
Having the chipper at home is probably a benefit in terms of ease of maintenance and security. They do make a racket that could put close neighbors on the war path. It seems like a set-up where you blow chips into storage bin or shed would be good if you feed the boiler from that bin or shed directly.
I think it adds up to a lot of costs and labor. Whatever money you get tied up in depreciating equipment is foregoing earnings too.
Scooby074
Super Member
Yeah I agree with the wear + tear etc.. As I said this free wood would not end up being "free". As of right now, the added cost of hauling multiple pieces of equipment to my woodlot, let alone BUYING and operating that additional equipment, dont pencil out vs. solid wood.
The cost for the boiler and its building will be basically the same no matter if I go with chips or solid, so thats not weighing too heavy on my decision, particularly if the cost of bought chips is cheaper than cordwood.
Now if I get 100ac at my new place as Id like, that could change things considerably. Id still have to buy a chipper, but there would be no hauling involved. It would be closer to "free" wood.
Buying chips could be the cheapest option of all. And if I can get some of the local arborists to dispose of their chips here vs. paying to dump them... more free heat for me!
Chips for home heat is in its infancy here, seems much more common in europe. Im just spitballing this now. By the time I move to my new place in 10 years, these numbers could be completely changed. I fully suspect solar will be making huge inroads in those 10 years.
No ground source for me. Growing up we had a Water to air heatpump. Now this was closer to 25 years ago and technology has changed, but that system was a massive POS and was an extremely expensive system to install. Cost a fortune to run and the house was always cold.
I doubt I could run a GT system here for $600/yr with our close to $0.14/kWh + service charge electricity. With wood heat and limiting power waste as much as possible, we're over $150/mth already.
Scooby074
Super Member
Were around $100 to $130 here depending on the sellers mood, lol.
Yes, chips are bulkier, but also lighter. A dump trailer with raised sides could haul a heck of a lot of chips.
Our woodlot is mixed. Some old growth pine, 24"+ but a lot of mixed woods on some cut areas under 18" with a bunch at <12. The lot is in dire need of management. Its been neglected for the last 10 years. I figured the ability to chip and burn alder would be good for those mixed areas.
Distance to the lot is a bit of an issue.
Softwood pulpwood <13" is about $40/ton delivered (~85/cd) . Thats what the chip mills pay. What a one off consumer would pay I dont know. I also dont know what the cost would be after chipping.
So If you can get SW PW delivered for $85/cd, you'd have about $45/cd to cover purchase of a chipper, fuel, maintenance etc. etc. relative to solid hardwood. On 10cd of softwood/yr, I dont see it. 10 years and I wouldnt even cover the cost of the chipper!
The only way it would work would be if processed chips are less than hardwood prices. It looks like chipping on a distant property or getting pulpwood delivered wont pencil out. It might pencil out if we had small time contract chippers like europe does.
Again if the wood source was on your local property and you could just drive into and haul chips out of your property, the numbers would be different.
Mechanical handling is real tempting however... Can you put a price on that convenience?
dmccarty
Super Star Member
And how many calories I burned cutting up the tree, splitting the rounds, moving the wood to the house, and getting rid of the ashes. :laughing::laughing::laughing:
I am burning 500-700 calories per hour splitting wood manually. You can't do that with those wimpy pellets!
Later,
Dan
charlz
Elite Member
I don't mind putting the 'sweat equity' into my feeding my pellet stove because it saves me real dollars versus my alternative which is a propane fueled central furnace. At little bit of work saves me around 55% of my heating costs. In your scenario of harvesting the wood, chipping it, hauling, storing, moving to be fed to boiler etc. It seems like you are putting a lot of 'sweat' into it but not really avoiding any of the expense... just moving the $'s to a different 'spent' column (fuel, parts, equipment etc.).
