Foundation for barn

[ldabe]

Hey guys,
I just bought a 24'x42'x18'(high) 70 year old horse barn with tongue & groove 1"x5" pine wall boards for $1500!

It is in fantastic condition!

The bad news is it is 10 miles from my property, and looks like it is going to cost another $3500 to $5000 to have it moved by a building mover.
Or, I could just take it apart myself...NOT!

Anyways, do any of you guys have any suggestions on what kind of foundation I should use. As usual I need to go cheap, because I am maxed on funds with the purchase and moving expense.

I don't want to go with a slab, because I want to put down brick pavers on the inside, like the old carriage houses had.

The obvious thing I guess (and I am guessing because I have never done a project like this before) is a concrete 'rat wall'. I think that is what it is called? But, if you guys have other ideas (and I know you all will, because the PT'ers have the most experiance of all [and the most fun]...in everything under the sun)

So bring on the suggestions!

BTW, I know this isn't exactly about the PT, but I will be using it to prepare the site and to store the PT in (I cannot wait to give the PT a nice home, you guys know it deserves it).

Looking forward to your ideas and suggestions, thanks in advance.

Abe.

 

[bearhawk]

Could you have a slab done with a brick "Stamping" colored and contoured to look like brick?

Or you would need what we call a "Frost Wall" a concrete foundation dug below the regional frost level. Your local building inspector should be able to help with this. Then you would need to prepare the inside for your pavers.

Good luck

Jim

 

[EddieWalker]

If what I'm thinking is the same thing, then it's not too hard to build a foundation for just the exterior walls. The biggest thing you'll need to know is how deep and wide to make them. Your location requires allot of depth that you will have to dig down. Rebar size and placement is also determined by your area. Do you need a permit? Is there any code? If not, then figure out what code is for something like this where there is code and build it to those specs.

Building up the forms isn't all that hard if you don't go too tall. How high did you want them? A foot is easy with 2x12's. Anything more then that and you will need use forms that wont blow out on you from the weight of the concrete when it's poured. Even with 2x12's, you will need to brace them and even pack the outsides with dirt to keep them straight.

If you have a way to dig the footings and can set forrms, it's not gonna be very dificult to pour the concrete. Just make sure to pour it in layers and have somebody either vibrating the mix, or at least shoving a pole in it to eliminate air pockets.

I wouldn't set bolts in the concrete, but wait until the barn is in place and then drill the holes and install the bolts.

Be sure to post some pics of this. I love that show on TV where they move homes. It's just amazing to watch!!!!

Eddie

 

[MossRoad]

Could you have a slab done with a brick "Stamping" colored and contoured to look like brick?

Or you would need what we call a "Frost Wall" a concrete foundation dug below the regional frost level. Your local building inspector should be able to help with this. Then you would need to prepare the inside for your pavers.

Good luck

Jim

Those are excellent ideas. He should do both. Here's how...

Dig down to the depth required in your area for the footing and have it poured with a key-way and rebar, as is standard building practice for your code.

Make foundation walls on top of the footing to bring the bottom of the barn up to grade and pour those with rebar, etc... be sure to include footings for any posts that the old barn has for support in the center.

Then have the barn put onto the new foundation and bolted down to anchor bolts that were put in the foundation before it was poured. The barn should get a new pressure treated sill plate at this time.

Then have a concrete contractor pour a floor and have a pattern stamped into it and colored at that time. The advances in concrete stamping and coloring are amazing and you will be able to get just about any color and look that you like with the benefit of a strong slab.

If it were me, I would have PEX tubing put into the slab in several zones so that later on, should you choose, you can heat the slab with hot water... say a zone in a tack room, a zone in an area to work on a car in the winter, etc....

 

[MarkV]

To me the foundation is going to be dictated by how the barn was constructed. Being that it is 70 years old, great find, many that age would be post and beam construction. If that were the case, the main posts are point loads which carry the whole structure and will require a good strong footing and connection at each point.

Any chance of some photos or a better description of how the barn is constructed?

MarkV

 

[Asymtave]

Sounds like a cool project! I take it you're near Ida? I grew up in Monroe.

Where did you find the barn? I've driven every inch of every road in Monroe County (long story.) I might be familiar with it.

It would be awesome put a limestone foundation in like it probably had originally. Not at all practical, but would be authentic.

The concrete footer/knee wall is likely most practical and cost effective. But with a 3 ft. frost line it's going to be pricey. Maybe you could veneer the outside of the wall later with stone?

Good luck.

 

[ldabe]

MR,
Great advice, especially the pex-tubing. But I am trying to stay away from a slab because my funds are running out fast. Though I have not priced doing the brick paving myself yet, I am thinking it would be the cheapest way, and look pretty cool too (also I can stone for now and do it later on). I just learned there is a fee/permit to move/travel on the roads from the Road Commission, so this adds more cost to the relocation fee. The biggest cost so far, though I only have an estimate, is at least $10,000 for the Utility companies to raise their lines for the move! I never imagined it would be so much! I cannot afford that (nor would getting the barn be a good deal any longer at that price), so now I am looking at a way to remove the roof first to lessen the height and not have to bother with the Utility Companies.

MarkV,
It is not a post and beam (I wish it was, I really like those), and it was modified inside with an I-Beam so the load bearing posts could be moved and not be in the way. It opened it up for greater movement and storage inside. I just took some pics today and will try to post them soon.

Asymtave,
Yes, I am southwest of Ida, and the barn is located at 5410 S. Custer, just west of Strasburg.
I am told that this is the old “Butler” farm. As for the “veneer”, right now it has vinyl siding on it. It looks real good though. I have been told under the vinyl is lap board siding, and there is a smaller building on the property, that if I remember correctly is not vinyl and has the lap board. But as for the siding, for now plans are it will stay the way it is. Again money issue is rearing it’s ugly head.

I want to thank everyone for your thoughts and comments. Please keep them coming, because I keep learning with each and everyone. In fact, somebody mentioned to me today that instead of taking the whole roof off, to just take off (starting from the peak down) what is needed to clear the wires. That may be the easiest, quickest, and cheapest way to go, and to replace.

Again, thanks and God bless to all.

 

[EddieWalker]

Hey guys,
I just bought a 24'x42'x18'(high) 70 year old horse barn with tongue & groove 1"x5" pine wall boards for $1500!

It is in fantastic condition!

Abe,

Your great deal isn't sounding as good a deal anymore when you add in the price to move the barn and the bill from the utility company. Since you are now thinking about removing the roof, which will just about eliminate any structural integrity to the building, you really should rethink your plan.

Without a roof, the building will need to be braced, which will cost you more money for the move.

Odds are very good that the building will suffer a much larger degree of damage in the move.

The roof is the hardest part of any building. If you are gonna take it off, then the walls are nothing in comparison.

For $1,500 you've bought yourself $5,000 or more in lumber. Adding the moving expenses to it means that you can spend more for it then if you had build it brand new from scratch on your land. Take it apart and rebuild it just like it is, or change it. You will find some lumber is bad, there always is a few pieces that need replacing, but overall, you can still have a barn for very little money.

Good luck

Eddie

 

[ldabe]

Here are a few pics of the Barn.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/photos/showphoto.php/photo/4078

EddieWalker,
Yes, you are right, the deal was not very good the further I checked into it. That is if it was to be moved completely whole. The Utility Companies would have had to be adopted into my family for the rest of my life ;0(
But even if I whittle the roof down myself, all things considered (minus a concrete floor) I believe I can come in under $10,000.
I can't build a 25'x30' pole barn for that! So within approx. two weeks, I should know if everything will be a go, or if I just have approx. $5,000 in wood (that I will have to dismantle myself).
Hey, btw your place is coming along great! Did you make those porch beams (posts) yourself that is in the front of your house? And let me say you have a beautiful family also.
I would love to come down in October, but money and projects are kicking my butt.
But thanks for the invite just the same.

Abe.

OOPS! Probably should have gave this URL:

http://www.tractorbynet.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=27084

 

[bearhawk]

How about a simple metal building. You can do a 30x40x16 for under 12k

There are quite a few manufactures, but this one will give an online quote.

Heritage Building Systems | Steel Buildings, Prefabricated Metal Building

 

[ldabe]

Bearhawk
I had considered a metal (pole barn) building before, but I just didn't care for the look on the outside.
I did come across another site that I have also considered:
Amish Built Horse Barns, Storage Sheds, and Modular Barns - Horizon Structures
in which I really like the outside look.

But like an idiot, I locked myself into this other barn without an escape clause! STUPID!

Well, as I was going about trying to get it moved to my place, most of what I was considering was height in the move. Again...STUPID!
Because the width is what has killed the move all together. I would have to remove quite a number of trees (to get down my 1300' driveway), and there is no way that is going to happen...it was one of the biggest reasons we bought the property.

So, EddieWalker's "Take it apart and rebuild it just like it is, or change it. " is going to have to be the final plan.

I'll try to take a lot of pictures...if nothing else occurrs from this whole ordeal, I should be able to provide everyone with a good laugh ;~)

 

[EddieWalker]

Sorry to hear it's not working out like you hoped, but I think in the end, you'll have a better barn this way. Now you will know what is good and what need replacing. You'll also be able to modify the original building and create something that is just right for you!!!

Eddie

 

[buckeyefarmer]

But even if I whittle the roof down myself, all things considered (minus a concrete floor) I believe I can come in under $10,000.
I can't build a 25'x30' pole barn for that!

I think others might have said it, but you can build a 25' x 30' barn for under 10K, without concrete floor.
It does look like a nice barn, and I hate to see old barns get torn down. I suggest tearing it down for the lumber and rebuilding.
I know if I could find a nice old small timber frame barn cheap, I would tear it down and rebuild it just for the fun of it.

 

[ldabe]

If anyone has some good tips or suggestions on how to dismantle a barn, now would be the time to offer them...pics would be of great help.

It looks like to me that there is no way to save the fairly new shingled roof, so when I start, I guess that will be the first thing to go (into a dumpster).
Then I guess I will start removing the plywood over the original roof cross boards, then those boards and then the rafter lumber.
Now here is where I think there could be two options:
1) Remove wall boards (tongue & grove inside, lap outside, under vinyl siding) board by board.

or

2) Cut the walls in sections (approx. 10'x10') after removing the vinyl siding.

All comments/suggestions appreciated!

Btw, thanks for all your comments/suggestions before.

 

[EddieWalker]

Sounds like you have a good plan. Start at the top and leave the walls intact. Once you get the etire roof off, then take off the sideing. Leaving the siding on until the last will keep the walls stiff and solid.

Good luck,
Eddie

 

[mikim]

Don't cut the walls! All you will be doing is creating scrap. I know it will take longer and more work to remove it all piece by piece, including the siding, as carefully as you can - but that's where your money is. If you start cutting it up - you might as well just set a match to it. Can you strike a deal about disposal of the pieces you don't want from the place it's at? Seems a waste to have to move it just to dispose of it. If you could pile it there then hire a dumpster after you move all the good stuff. You've got a heck of a project ahead of you - and I'm sure you have days of dread thinking about where & how to start. First thing is -- don't even think of the ending. Grab a hammer and pry bar and tear into it thinking of what you want to accomplish just that day.... don't set your sights on the last day -- just look to the end of each day. Do you have a time limit on this? If you're fighting a deadline - get help. Trying to hurry the job against a deadline will only do 2 things (besides the frustration) 1. it'll create more scrap and cost you $$ in material loss & 2. it will set you up for an accident -- and you surely don't want to hurt yourself or anybody else in this. Getting help is also good for one's moral - you don't feel so alone -- misery does indeed love company -- but it will help you motivate yourself too. ----- history --- In 1988 I was raising 3 kids on my own in a mobile - it burned. I had insurance, but not enough so my only recourse was to rebuild it. It was saved enough to do that. For 3 days I went out there and all I got done was a lot of hand wringing and soul wrenching. On the 4th day a friend showed up with his sledge hammer and started knocking walls out - that's all it took -- getting started. 6 months later we moved back in. If he hadn't showed up to get me started ...

 

[JRobyn]

.... tips or suggestions on how to dismantle a barn, now would be the time to offer them...pics would be of great help....

Pic attached of the old tobacco drying pole barn we took down for a neighbor a year or two ago. It was in a lot worse shape than your's sounds like it's in!

We disassembled mostly in the inverse order of construction; roof tin first, then siding boards, then frame. Most of the lumber was rough mill sawn oak, either a full 1" thick (siding) or 2" (frame). The lumber was a little green and soft when it was built in the 40s, but that stuff is hard as iron now. The best tip I can give you, is to go buy several of the biggest, heaviest pry bars you can find. Even with pine, they'll make disassembly much easier. You'll also need a few 10# sledge hammers!

Our plan was to eventually reassemble into our own pole barn, but despite my careful stacking of the timber (in the field) to allow good air circulation, I'm afraid it will rot before I get chance to rebuild. Plus, my wife now thinks she wants to panel the inside of the kitchen of the house we eventually plan to build with some of the siding boards. Ah well, that old 2" framing and the rusty tin will still make some wicked good sheds.

- Jay

 

[Diesel-ME]

....
2) Cut the walls in sections (approx. 10'x10') after removing the vinyl siding.

Go out and buy a really nice recipricating saw (e.g. Milwaukee Super Sawzall, etc) - not a cordless unless there is no power there. Once the roof is off use the sawzall to cut the nails that hold the wall panels together and carefully dis-assemble the building. You are going to want a bunch of long 2x4's to temporarily support walls as you take it appart.

Can you move whole walls on a trailer? (a bit wide on the road, but I hope so ...)

You'll have to decide re: the siding - probably have to remove it.

~paul

 

[ldabe]

This Project Has Been Cancelled!

Thanks everyone for all your input, it was very much appreciated, but things just kept falling apart in trying to make this happen.

Thanks again,
Abe.

 

[EddieWalker]

Sorry to hear it didn't work out for you. I've taken one barn down and done quite a bit of demolision on homes I've worked on, and it's a much bigger job them most people imagine.

Thanks for the update.

Eddie