FUEL PROBLEMS with Ethonal

[TomSeller]

No one is going to outlaw it. The opposite will be true. The only way ethanol free gas will be available at the retail level is if there is a demand for it. You don't see every food product made on every grocer's shelf. Just the products that move consistently. The majority of folks have no issues with ethanol in gasoline, except maybe on principle. There is relatively few folks that have any actual mechanical problems that can be directly attributed to ethanol in gas. So, there is not going to ever really be that significant demand for ethanol free gas. So to that end, those that only want to use gas only, will have a more difficult time getting it. The gooberment is not as pure as the wind driven snow in this matter, but it also is basic economics at play. There are pluses and minuses to every fuel there is. No fuel is without problems, just different. It costs a significant amount of money to have additional storage tanks for extra types of fuels. And a lot of places are not going to carry more than a regular with ethanol and a premium (probably also with ethanol). At best, maybe a mid grade also. It just isn't cost effective for all stations to offer more than that, because the volume of sales don't justify it. Especially when you factor in that regular, ethanol free gas, is usually a few cents more in cost. Many folks focus in on the lowest price they can get at the pump. Very few people are purists about their vehicles and get all caught up in the arcane details over fuels and oils.

Sounds like something a gooberment worker would say. Ethanol in our gas is a gooberment boondoggle

 

[PoorPlowboy]

Next thing you know chainsaws and handheld power equipment will gain 5 lbs and $100 cost for a closed evap system in order to safely use corn gas.

 

[Diamondpilot]

No one is going to outlaw it. The opposite will be true. The only way ethanol free gas will be available at the retail level is if there is a demand for it. You don't see every food product made on every grocer's shelf. Just the products that move consistently. The majority of folks have no issues with ethanol in gasoline, except maybe on principle. There is relatively few folks that have any actual mechanical problems that can be directly attributed to ethanol in gas. So, there is not going to ever really be that significant demand for ethanol free gas. So to that end, those that only want to use gas only, will have a more difficult time getting it. The gooberment is not as pure as the wind driven snow in this matter, but it also is basic economics at play. There are pluses and minuses to every fuel there is. No fuel is without problems, just different. It costs a significant amount of money to have additional storage tanks for extra types of fuels. And a lot of places are not going to carry more than a regular with ethanol and a premium (probably also with ethanol). At best, maybe a mid grade also. It just isn't cost effective for all stations to offer more than that, because the volume of sales don't justify it. Especially when you factor in that regular, ethanol free gas, is usually a few cents more in cost. Many folks focus in on the lowest price they can get at the pump. Very few people are purists about their vehicles and get all caught up in the arcane details over fuels and oils.

You are so wrong. Go to any mower shop or marina and talk to the guys there. I am in the marine business and maintain about 75 motors. It keeps lots of money in my pocket so for me ethanol and it's problems are a good thing.

I will agree with you on stores carry what is in demand but to say there is no issues with ethanol is crazy.

Chris

 

[DarkBlack]

The only way ethanol free gas will be available at the retail level is if there is a demand for it.

You deserve an award for the most ignorant post... ever made on TBN.

 

[KiotiKowboy]

You deserve an award for the most ignorant post... ever made on TBN.

Geeeez - Brutal much?

Demand matters, but only when the demand is enforced by action.

 

[DarkBlack]

Demand matters, but only when the demand is enforced by action.

Product demand has nothing to do with enforcement. 'Availability' can be related to enforcement, such as the 'availability' of ethanol.

 

[DarkBlack]

Demand:
Investopedia.
An economic principle that describes a consumer's desire and willingness to pay a price for a specific good or service.

 

[KiotiKowboy]

Product demand has nothing to do with enforcement. 'Availability' can be related to enforcement, such as the 'availability' of ethanol.

You misunderstand my point.

Ethanol is being pushed on a mostly unwilling populace through government FORCE. You and I can "demand" by purchasing all supplies and it will ultimately make ZERO difference - as government has already decided the issue for you. On the other hand, we can "demand" by speaking out, making calls, banging on doors and ultimately removing Marxists from office by whatever means required - and, THAT will make a difference.

 

[3930dave]

Dave, your general contentions are correct, to a point. The first, the fuel tax deal governments benefit from due to decreased mpg, is not long lasting. Cummins, GM, and others have engines in testing phase right now, that get better hp and torque than current crop of engines, at a lower displacement, along with as good or better mpg than current engines running gas, and doing it all on E85. GM's 3.2L EBDI engine in testing now, gets the same HP and Torque as the 6.6L Duramax diesel, and better mpg, on E85. Cummins 2.8L inline 4 banger, currently in testing, has 450 lb torque (better than most small V8's) and as good or better mpg, again, from E85.

Phase separation can indeed happen. Does it happen frequently? Not that you would notice. Folks in the midwest, with their wet winters, and humid summers, have been using ethanol blends from E10, E20, E30, on up to E85 for decades and phase separation is something that hardly ever comes up. Most folks have no clue what it is, and if it were occurring frequently, they would. True, ethanol will blend with water and cause phase separation, but unless you are introducing water into the fuel tank, it is not really an issue. All vehicle fuel systems and tanks are closed, non vented systems. My advice... don't pour water into your fuel tank. Only put fuel in it. Some marine and small engine problems could occur, but usually because of long term storage in the tank and vented tanks. That is a recipe for condensation issues, and that could cause a problem combined with ethanol. But it could also cause a problem even with regular gas. Now, I will concede that a fuel station could have issues with their storage tanks and it cause a problem. After all, we do not live in a perfect world. But it sure seems to be extremely rare.

E15, it is still too early in the game to make a full conclusive determination if it is a problem. The USDA and DOT have done a lot of testing and not found any conclusive data that shows E15 is a problem in vehicles produced in the last 10 years.

True, problems with ethanol can occur, just like they can if someone gets a bad batch of gas or diesel. The ethanol folks have had a standing offer to pay off anyone with, best I recall, $250,000 if they can prove conclusively that an ethanol blended fuel actually was the prime culprit in a fuel related problem. So far, no one has won the prize. Usually it is found that conditions that had nothing to do with the ethanol itself was the true culprit. like vented fuel systems, improper storage, etc.

I have no issue with anyone who doesn't want to buy the stuff. I have no dog in that hunt. I like ethanol blends, and have used them in everything from lawn mowers, chain saws, generators, and vehicles for a long, long time, with not one fuel related problem. But I do somewhat take issue with arguments that are based on internet folklore or some rare situation that we do not know all the facts surrounding the case. If ethanol were such a problem, there would have been a hue and cry come up from the public a long time ago. But except for a few outspoken folks and the oil companies themselves, you hardly hear a peep from anyone else. Day after day, year round, for decades, a high percentage of the buying public have filled their tanks with E10, at least, with hardly any issues occurring.

It makes it real hard to buy into the fear and conspiracy regarding ethanol.

I do welcome real technical advances, and look forward to learning more about the engines you describe - I for one appreciate you mentioning them. Full pursuit of ethanol use was done a long time ago in Brazil.... I'm aware that it can be successfully used.... my personal irritation lies with the consequences of mixed fuel use in our markets, esp. on older engines.

There are a few vectors at play here..... General Govt desires for increased taxes, Corn Politics, and (with my tin-foil hat firmly pulled down ) the ability of new fuel formulations to hurry along the demise of older engine technologies - there is a general economic turnover arguement for this, as well as the "Environmental" aspect of marching this migration along. I've never liked being "gamed", esp. on expensive items.....

"If ethanol were such a problem, there would have been a hue and cry come up from the public a long time ago. But except for a few outspoken folks and the oil companies themselves, you hardly hear a peep from anyone else. "

Awareness vs. Ignorance..... Plenty of people ignore oil changes often, and some people never bother changing anti-freeze, ATF, hydraulic fluid, diff or transfer case oil........

Aside from gearhead geeks like us here, and on other forums, (maybe 5% of the population ?) the general public wouldn't know an ethanol related problem if they fell over it. Recent post about somebody's MH being OD'd on ethanol due to a blending error being an obvious exception.

These blending errors happen more often than you might think, and highlights the impact of ethanol well. Other additives (ex. detergents) can probably float up and down in concentration (OK, so your injectors got a little extra cleaning this tank.....) with little serious impact; not so with ethanol.

There is no one magic elixir for fuel use.... as I've said b4, if somebody's fuelling practices (with or w/o your own additives used) are working well, stick with what works for you...... if you are having headaches, do some research, and make some adjustments to your fuelling - Repeat cycle as needed.....

Rgds, D.

 

[3930dave]

It keeps lots of money in my pocket so for me ethanol and it's problems are a good thing.
Chris

As I say to my pro-wrench buddy, about one large car manufacturer's Production Engineering practices....

Nahhh, it's not a design defect, it's an annuity !

:greedy: :cool2:

Rgds, D.

 

[lilranch2001]

2 years ago I was in need of chain saw gas and didn't have any non alcohol in cans, so I want to the local gas station and got some drunken gas
Mixed it up and used it for what I was needing and let the rest of it sit after I got "good gas mix", figured I would use the drunken gas up starting a brush pile sooner or later.

Well fast forward to today, I wanted to burn one of my brush piles, got that little jug of gas out, started pouring it into a spent plastic fertilizer jug for putting it on the fire, and I swear, smelling it was rank,

Tell me gas will hold for years.....

I think some of yas are smokin wacky terbaccy

 

[Copperhead]

You are so wrong. Go to any mower shop or marina and talk to the guys there. I am in the marine business and maintain about 75 motors. It keeps lots of money in my pocket so for me ethanol and it's problems are a good thing.

I will agree with you on stores carry what is in demand but to say there is no issues with ethanol is crazy.

Chris

I never said or meant to imply that there are no issues with ANY fuel. I did say that storage and usage and the type of fuel containment could be an issue. And that is the crux of the issue... a lot of folks will blame the fuel, when in fact, most times it is their incompetence that actually caused a problem. Not following proper fuel management and maintenance procedures has led to more problems than the fuels themselves. And that is why no one has been able to collect on the quarter million dollar award they could get if they could prove that the fuel was the culprit. And non of us likes to admit we screwed the pooch in how we did something. It is common today to blame someone or something else for our stupidity.

Now, from some in the marine industry....

From the Boat Owners Association of the U.S.

Three Ethanol Myths Clarified - BoatUS Magazine

From the Marine Engines and Fuels website:

MYTH: Ethanol-blended fuels are bad and should be avoided.

TRUTH: Ethanol blended fuels (E10) are common throughout much of the United States. After the transition period from non-ethanol fuel, E10 may actually be a superior marine fuel, as it tends to keep low levels of water moving through the fuel system, keeping the system é›»ry? For over a decade, marine engines have been engineered to handle E10 gasoline. However, all types of fuels should be treated if they won't be used in a few weeks.


And this from Higgins Classic Boats Association

Fuels

 

[big bubba]

"After the transition period from non-ethanol fuel, E10 may actually be a superior marine fuel, as it tends to keep low levels of water moving through the fuel system, keeping the system é›»ry? " copperhead ???

not sure what is being said....so it's good for low levels of water moving through an internal combustion fuel system? regards

 

[Copperhead]

I didn't write it, they did. Take it for what it's worth. The previous argument was expressing how marine engines are affected, and I just took a quote from the Marine Engines and Fuels website. I have no dog in that hunt, as I don't own a boat.

 

[bumperm]

I didn't write it, they did. Take it for what it's worth. The previous argument was expressing how marine engines are affected, and I just took a quote from the Marine Engines and Fuels website. I have no dog in that hunt, as I don't own a boat.

Oh, that doesn't mean you don't have a dog in the hunt.

Bottom line, ethanol laced fuel is crap, another of the green rip-offs visited upon the consumer and tax payer by XXXX (censored in a valiant attempt at not having this post deleted by management).

 

[Copperhead]

If you feel so strongly about it, then don't buy it. If you have no choice, then call your hired help at the state captitol or in D.C. I don't feel as strongly about the issue. I can live with it or without it. My vehicles and equipment run fine on either, so I will not join the chorus. Be that as it may, line up some folks that think the way you do and make some noise about it. You might actually make a difference. It will not hurt me in any way, so I am all for anyone raising a stink about it one way or the other. Good luck.

 

[vsteel]

"After the transition period from non-ethanol fuel, E10 may actually be a superior marine fuel, as it tends to keep low levels of water moving through the fuel system, keeping the system é›»ry? " copperhead ???

not sure what is being said....so it's good for low levels of water moving through an internal combustion fuel system? regards

Water injection has been around for a long time. It doesn't hurt an engine. The point though that the article is making that the alcohol is picking up the small amounts of water in the fuel system and burning it before it becomes a large amount of water and stops the engine from working. Same thing as people who put heet in their gas tank to stop fuel lines from freezing up. It is just alcohol.

It can be said a lot of times that this is a conspiracy but if you look at the research and data you will see the E10 is there to replace things like MTBE and other octane boosters and oxygenation chemicals, look that up and see what they do for the water system.

Rotting fuel lines and carb issues, I have never seen it and I have ran it through a Model 80 Owatana windrower, a Massey Harris combine, several old Oliver, John Deere and IH tractors with no issues. All built long before E10 was thought of. Maybe it is the luck of the draw but again I have never had issues and no one I know personally has ever had an issue with it. /shrug

It does have less energy than gasoline but only 10% less, so with 10% of the mix being 10% less energy that would be 1% total reduction of energy. But there is also the extra O2 that is in the mix and extra octane which can also give you more power if you have an engine that can take advantage by changing the settings to extract more power. Alcohol will also clean carbon out of combustion chambers.

I will say I am against E85, not because of conspiracy or anything like that, it is because we make it out of corn and it has a terrible diesel to alcohol ratio. Over 10% mix and it isn't to provide a replacement for other chemicals but to just be a substitution of gas. If we are going to something like E85 we need to be using something like switch grass or something that has about a 20 to 1 conversion ratio.

I do agree though if you feel better buying ethanol free fuel then by all means. I am just sharing my experiences and what I have researched. (I did some engineering research and study in college on alcohol as a motor fuel.)

 

[like2wheel]

It does have less energy than gasoline but only 10% less, so with 10% of the mix being 10% less energy that would be 1% total reduction of energy. But there is also the extra O2 that is in the mix and extra octane which can also give you more power if you have an engine that can take advantage by changing the settings to extract more power. Alcohol will also clean carbon out of combustion chambers.

I will say I am against E85, not because of conspiracy or anything like that, it is because we make it out of corn and it has a terrible diesel to alcohol ratio. Over 10% mix and it isn't to provide a replacement for other chemicals but to just be a substitution of gas. If we are going to something like E85 we need to be using something like switch grass or something that has about a 20 to 1 conversion ratio.

)

10%??
I'm pretty sure that's way off. More like 40%

And what does E85 have to do with diesel?


Sorry, you lost all credibility with me here.

 

[Copperhead]

Well, the BTU energy content is less than gas, but that does not equate to less mpg or performance when the engine is designed specifically to take advantage of all the features of the fuel. Case in point, the GM 3.2L EBDI engine in testing right now. Primarily designed for E85, but is also flex fuel capable. On E85, it has the same HP and Torque as the 6.6L Duramax diesel, while getting the same fuel economy as the diesel. Now there is a strong difference between the BTU content of ethanol compared to diesel, much more than the difference between gas and ethanol. Yet, an engine half the size of the 6.6L can generate the same HP and Torque using a fuel with lower BTU content and considerably cheaper in price at the pump. This engine has been under testing in 3500HD pickups. No idea when or if it will ever be made available to us out here in the cheap seats. BTU content of the fuel is only one aspect to consider. There are other aspects of the fuel that can be taken advantage of. In ethanol's case, significantly higher compression ratios than can be run with even premium gas. Ethanol, when injected, has a cooling effect on the intake air temperature and combustion chamber. You can not only have higher compression ratios with ethanol, but you also get a higher air density from the air being cooled. Something neither gas or diesel offers. And these are just some of the characteristics of ethanol that can be taken advantage of.

The problem with the lower mpg in current flex fuel vehicles using E85, is that they are designed primarily for gas, and cannot fully take advantage of things like diesel engine level compression ratios and other factors, to glean all the capabilities out of using higher ethanol concentrations. Same can be said of all other gas engines using E10. The engines were not primarily developed to take advantage of the fuel. Just basic modifications to allow the use of it. Hopefully soon, engines designed around ethanol specifically will be made available, and we can then use all the E85 we want and allow those with older engines to use all the gas they want. We all will win!

Those that have such an aversion to using ethanol should be championing the OEM's to bring out these newer E85 specific engines so that they will have more traditional gas to use for themselves. It is called... "lighting a candle instead of cursing the darkness". And who cares what the ethanol is made from... corn, sugar beets, or granny's fruit cake. If it is not cost effective to make one way, then folks will find a way to use another source. The market price will determine what is cost effective to use as a feed stock for the product.

 

[lilranch2001]

I am going to depart this thread,
Copper inundates the thread with so much word count, I get exhausted trying to read it.

What's that old saying, If you cant dazzle them with brilliance, baffle em with BS?

Enjoy