Garden fence build

[drumminj]

As we close in on the end of the growing season, it's time to build a permanent garden solution vs the t-posts and chicken wire we used this year while evaluating the site location. Looking for any feedback from folks on ways to improve or mistakes I may be making...

Looking to build a fence around our garden area similar to shown in the photos here:



I've worked up my own plans based on the photos, but haven't build anything like this before so may be making some bad assumptions. Here's what I'm planning:

• Fenced area will be 35ft x 35ft (approx)
• Posts: 6x6 corners and either side of the door; 4x4 elsewhere, all buried 3' deep. Will fill bottom of hole with 3-4" of gravel and then use 2 50lb bags of quickrete to set the posts. Will backfill the rest with our clay dirt here in TN.
• All ground-contact rated pressure treated lumber (YellaWood SYP).
• Will use 5' tall 6 gauge livestock panels with 4x4 openings.
• 64" span between posts, so each panel will be 60"x64" and weigh 16 pounds.
• 2x4 top and bottom rails holding the panels, which will be toe-nailed into the posts (will use a framing nailer for the build)
• Will rip 2x4s in half for the trim pieces which hold the panels in place
• Rather than have the fence open at the bottom, I'll make a panel with 1/2" hardware cloth for the bottom 12" or so, again trimmed/framed with ripped 2x4s on three sides and buried in the ground on the bottom to protect against burrowing creatures.
• Will run 2x6s around both inside and outside of posts around the top to help with overall stability and resisting any twisting of the posts. Will face-nail to the 6x6 posts on the outside and toe-nail into the side of the 6x6s on the inside of the fence.
• Total height will be 8-9' above ground

I feel pretty good about the plan overall, but have a couple of concerns:

• Never used a framing nailer before. Gotta practice to make sure I can keep the top and bottom rails in place when I toe nail them
• Bottom 2x4 rails supporting the weight of the panel. Online calculators tell me deflection shouldn't be an issue over a 64" span with evenly distributed weight, but experience tells me a 2x4 run horizontally like that is going to sag over time. I'm hoping/expecting that the 2x "trim" pieces will help add rigidity to the span and help resist any sagging, but these obviously will be mechanically fastened together rather than being a true 3" thick piece of lumber (does that matter?)
• Will the connection points of the bottom rail to the posts be strong enough?
• Are the 2x6s at the top of the fence too big a sail such that they'll to much force on the structure in high winds? At the least they will make it a little top-heavy. I"m wondering if 2x6s would be better, even though they'd be less rigid

Would love to hear any thoughts/feedback folks might have. I've been pricing out materials the past few days and it looks like it'll come in right around $2500. Yikes!

And after this I have to put together the Costco greenhouse we have on order...

 

[2manyrocks]

You won't be driving that many fasteners relatively speaking so why not use exterior coated screws? You can reposition a screw if needed. Hand squeeze clamps could be handy for holding things in place until you screw it down.

Home Depot has 16' corral boards for about $17. They aren't 2x dimension. More like 6/4 I'd say. Instead of running 2x4s between posts that are toe nailed, you could run longer corral boards face screwed to the posts which should greatly simplify assembly time because you won't have to cut them to length between posts, and this avoids toe nailing.

 

[deezler]

Sounds like a pretty good plan to me. You're definitely over-designing it, but if that's how you like to do things, right on.

My 2 cents:

• Ditch the framing nailer idea and just use outdoor/deck screws, everywhere. This way it is all removable/adjustable if you need to make any tweaks.
• Also, just put the big panels into the dirt. Who cares if they corrode a bit over time down where you can't see them. Why have a vulnerable gap at the bottom? Ideally they are even below grade a bit to deter dig-unders.
• Also, even if you ran 2-bys underneath the panels, they would basically do nothing and not really carry the weight of the panels. The cattle/hog panels are very rigid vertically, so as long as you fasten them to the posts, you're good. They sure are floppy sideways, but strong as heck across themselves.

Here's how I did my own 24x32 garden:

I scrapped this together for very cheap overall. Mostly whatever 4x4 posts I had laying around. Bought treated (cedar-tone) 1x4s to go over the panels on the outside of the posts. If this wasn't hiding behind my house, or if I was in a nieghborhood, I might have tried to use nicer posts and make a pretty looking top rail across everything. But this works fine.
The CMU blocks and pavers I had on hand as well, only used to make a bit of retaining wall and level my soil inside. I put 3' tall chicken wire around the entire bottom perimeter, too. Rabbits can easily hop through a 4"x4" opening....

 

[2manyrocks]

4x4 panels are pretty strong in and of themselves. The boards are there mainly there for appearance to make the installed panels look straighter.

 

[chris the wrench]

I echo the screws preference stated above. Ive built several fences like the one ive included below. I usually dado blade slots in the 2x4s.

You have any small critter concerns where you will need a tighter screen down low?

 

[drumminj]

Thanks for the feedback all. General comments:

• Screws vs nails: Generally I agree and build things with screws/value being able to take it apart or adjust. In this case, I don't think I want to drive that many screws (25 posts, 4 rail connection points to each post, 2 screws per connection = 200 screws just for the rails to the posts. 4 screws per post for the 2x6 = another 100 screws. Plus the "trim" boards I'm probably over 400 screws). It will also be harder to hold up the rails and keep them level while I screw them in vs a nail gun. But I'm open to being convinced
• Panels: I wasn't planning to fasten the livestock panels to the posts, but instead just have the rails/frame support them. Basically was planning to connect the rails to the posts, then attach one side of the trim "frame" to the rails and posts, place the panel in the frame, then nail in the other side of the trim snug to the panel.
• Small Critters: Its buried in the original post, but my plan is 1/2" square hardware cloth on the bottom of the fence. Think of it as two panels in each section -- the larger 60x64" one will be 4x4 livestock panel. The panel below it will be 12" tall and have hardware cloth instead of the 4x4.

If I were to connect the panels to the posts, what kind of fastener would I use?

 

[drumminj]

Home Depot has 16' corral boards for about $17. They aren't 2x dimension. More like 6/4 I'd say. Instead of running 2x4s between posts that are toe nailed, you could run longer corral boards face screwed to the posts which should greatly simplify assembly time because you won't have to cut them to length between posts, and this avoids toe nailing.

I agree there are simpler ways to build this (and stronger, namely face-nailing/screwing everything). In this case it's aesthetics -- having the metal panel centered front to back in the posts and having the texture of the trim pieces around it.

Obviously we could build something like we did for our dog fence -- just staple/nail welded wire fence to the back or front of the posts with a 1x to cover over the joints, but looking for something better looking here. And it'll make it a more interesting project.

 

[drumminj]

Totally random comment to make on this project -- it's been a hassle tracking down 5' tall livestock panels. The local co-op and tractor supply only stock 4' tall panels.

I reached out to Oklahoma Steel/OK Panels directly and they've been awesome and a HUGE help. I never would expect their sales people to spend so much time helping out someone who only needs 8 panels for a one-off project. Kudos to them.

 

[chris the wrench]

If I were to connect the panels to the posts, what kind of fastener would I use?

Im assuming you mean attaching the goat/hog panels to the 4x4 posts kinda quick and dirty but very easy? Ive used fence post staples on projects i was less concerned about aesthetics. 3/4” long and these

Also gotta remember the wet lumber is going to dry out significantly, so all the care you put into tight corners of picture framing panel detail maybe for naught in a few months. If im doing a big job for a customer I’ll get all the lumber on site. Put the posts inthe ground and then, if time allows, come back in a few weeks and hang the rest. If its just a cedar picket fence I dont bother waiting, but i almost always try to wait a few weeks before hanging a custom wooden gate.

 

[chris the wrench]

Quick and easy on that gate or dado blade cut slots on the frames. The panels just rest in the slots.

 

[deezler]

If I were to connect the panels to the posts, what kind of fastener would I use?

I bought a sack of little mending plates, IE the thin metal strip of zinc plated or galavanized (better) with 2 or 4 holes in them already. Put over any section of wire in the cattle panel, and 1-1/2" deck screws to fasten.

 

[chris the wrench]

Here's how I did my own 24x32 garden:

How did you attach the mesh to the welded panels? Zipties seem to last about 1.5 years in the sun around me. I might use hog rings, Ive used those on gabion walls, but seemed kinda overkill for attaching the mesh.

 

[big bubba]

Quick and easy on that gate or dado blade cut slots on the frames. The panels just rest in the slots.

nice job & garden space

 

[ning]

Assuming that this is to keep deer out, my only advice is to consider a much lesser fence around a much larger area of the property. $2500 gets a lot of fencing materials, with 5' of 2x4 horse fence on the bottom, a couple strands of barbed or barbless wire on top you can keep deer out and much farther away from the garden and without the garden being right on the other side of the fence from them they're even less likely to try the fence. Then you can have more future flexibility in your more intensely planted space.

I like the looks of what you've got in mind but my experience is that at some point you may want more garden space, and then you're doing that again or just pushing the deer farther out once and for all.

In our gardens I occasionally throw some 4' wire (usually 2x4) around a couple beds here or there because the chickens decided to get into them, but our gardens are otherwise just open to the surrounding yard. It's a nice feeling not being enclosed IMO though our neighbors aren't particularly close so we're not looking for a feeling of privacy.

 

[drumminj]

Assuming that this is to keep deer out, my only advice is to consider a much lesser fence around a much larger area of the property. $2500 gets a lot of fencing materials, with 5' of 2x4 horse fence on the bottom, a couple strands of barbed or barbless wire on top you can keep deer out and much farther away from the garden and without the garden being right on the other side of the fence from them they're even less likely to try the fence. Then you can have more future flexibility in your more intensely planted space.

I like the looks of what you've got in mind but my experience is that at some point you may want more garden space, and then you're doing that again or just pushing the deer farther out once and for all.

In our gardens I occasionally throw some 4' wire (usually 2x4) around a couple beds here or there because the chickens decided to get into them, but our gardens are otherwise just open to the surrounding yard. It's a nice feeling not being enclosed IMO though our neighbors aren't particularly close so we're not looking for a feeling of privacy.

I appreciate you challenging the approach from this perspective. You are right that this is mostly to keep deer (and rabbits, etc) out. No need to impress or look good for neighbors, just our own enjoyment. I also agree that we'll likely want more space in the future, but I don't think we could get it by making this area larger.

First off, we already have multiple garden areas. You can see in the photos below that there's the current garden (chicken wire and t-posts on the left), and a fruit garden on the right with t-posts and 2x4 welded wire around it. We're planning to grow garlic in cattle waterer tubs outside the fenced garden once it's complete, and also have a cedar planter with herbs right off the back stoop of the house.



Secondly, we're constrained by trees and topography. We have plenty of land -- 20+ acres -- but only so much flat land close to the house. The pink flagging tape in the photo represents the outline of the planned fence build. We'll be putting an 8x10 greenhouse just to the right of that, so the only area to expand into would be farther back, which will entail quite a bit more clearing work. We have talked about putting fruit/nut trees back that way (sadly the pecan trees we planted got eaten) so maybe that project is sooner on the calendar than I'm currently thinking.

Our land is also terraced with mature trees, so that's a fun part to work around. Can't really smooth out the terracing without getting into the roots, and we want to keep many of the trees.

This has been good though to think about how the structure of the fence will fit in with everything else that's there. Wonder if it will feel too busy/enclosed...going to have to go stare at it for a while

 

[bcp]

Paint the livestock panels black or dark green, then you will feel less enclosed.

Bruce

 

[drumminj]

Also gotta remember the wet lumber is going to dry out significantly, so all the care you put into tight corners of picture framing panel detail maybe for naught in a few months. If im doing a big job for a customer I’ll get all the lumber on site. Put the posts inthe ground and then, if time allows, come back in a few weeks and hang the rest. If its just a cedar picket fence I dont bother waiting, but i almost always try to wait a few weeks before hanging a custom wooden gate.

Yeah I learned about the shrinkage with my chicken run build.

Curious to get your input -- I had thought it'd be better to get the rails and the trellis attached to the posts as soon as possible to help minimize any warping/twisting of the posts or of the rails themselves. While the boards may shrink, the overall structure should keep them straight-ish.

Is that a flawed assumption? Better to wait and let the boards dry out more and just work with minor warping/cupping?

 

[chris the wrench]

We have plenty of land -- 20+ acres -- but only so much flat land close to the house.

That’s a nice spot you got there. I hear ya about space, but none of its flat!!

You will find that even though a board can shrink upwards of 10% -15% width wise as it shrinks, the length is significantly less percentage, but over an 8’ span it’s definitely noticeable. Ive seen a few rails rip off posts(screws break, nails bend) because of shrinking but more so just aesthetically fit and finish isn't tight. When i build decks, that someone pays alot of $$ for, i want every joint tight for a long time. Fences are usually scrutinized less. Comes down to owners expectations.

 

[EddieWalker]

My garden is 90x90 and it's too small for my wife and I. I have 24 raised beds that are 4ft wide and 16 feet long. I've bought several dump truck loads of good quality garden dirt for the beds. Our goal is to have enough to last a year, and then some. So far, we tend to run out at about ten months. I'll add another 8 beds and see if that is enough, but in all reality, I think that I'll need to double the size of the garden to have what we need for a full year.

If you are just starting out with vegetable gardens, consider how you will make the area bigger.

My fence is 2x4 horse fence. Each opening is 2inches by 4 inches. Rabbits go right through it. This past Spring, there where four that where tormenting us and my dogs. The garden is inside the dog yard, so they have to go through their area to get to the garden area. Eventually they all disappeared, but it did take longer then expected. Small rabbits are very fast, big Akita's are not as fast!!!!

6x6 posts will look the nicest, but they are the most expensive posts you can buy except Western Cedar. Round Posts are the most cost effective.

Once the wood has been out in the elements for a little while, the nails will start loosening up. I never use nails on anything that is exposed to the elements. I rarely use nails inside a house too.

Coated deck screws are my favorite. You can get them in a large variety of lengths, and they are super easy to remove if you mess up, or change your mind on something. Even if it's ten years later!!!!

 

[2manyrocks]

Ning brought up the point that I keep running into. I've just used a simple electric fence to keep the deer out. No matter where I think it is in the right place, it always seems to end up in the way. At least it's fairly easy to pull up, but never fun to drive the T posts again in the next spot.