Generator install - where to start

[Larry Caldwell]

The expensive part of gas or electric installation is the hole. Price the ditches and repair. Pipe and wire are cheap by comparison.

For multiple panels, there is a transfer switch that installs under the meter. If you only have one meter, it will pick up everything.

 

[Larry Caldwell]

400A main service panels are substantially more expensive than 2x200A, which may be why you don't see them as much, and it may get many folks into 3 phase which is also not common, and often an expensive addition.

When I built my shop I gave it its own 200 amp service. To stick with one meter, I planted a 400 amp panel next to the transformer, feeding 200 amps to the house and 200 amps to the shop. The 400 amp panel was not particularly expensive.

 

[Highlandr]

I did once look at buying a house that had a single 400A main, which I thought was ideal. I'm not sure why that's not more popular, but at least around here, 2x200A seems to be the much more common approach for larger homes.

When we built we went with 2x200 because one panel is everything the portable generator* will power feed and one panel is everything else which includes the detached garage/shop.

When we built I figured we'd upgrade one day to whole-house with auto-switching, but we just don't have the power outages to warrant it.

* Which plugs into a receptacle on the other end of the house, just inside the basement garage door.

 

[drumminj]

Generator Warehouse is one of the largest online store of Generators Equipment in Malaysia. We've been running a business with over 10 years' experience in selling various needs for Generators Equipment.

View attachment 4996666

Sorry, I just did a quick search for the product and picked one of the first ones with info. Electric generators direct would have been better. My apologies!

 

[ning]

My understanding is that the generator warranty will only be valid if the installation is signed off by a manufacturer-approved installer.

I've been looking at getting a 22kW Kohler for my battery-backed system (which, incidentally, would be slightly out of line-of-sight, but there's a complete system disconnect switch immediately next to the power meter, for the grid-tie solar/battery system) and a local dealer is willing to do the final sign-off for a modicum of money if I buy the system from them, and they say they can match the on-line prices.

I can't advise about the placement; for my solar I used a ground mount and dug a 500' trench and used oversized cabling to minimize voltage drop... aesthetically I'd probably go with paying more to stick it behind the house because of noise & view, depending on possible locations for noise & view of course (some people prefer their back yard view). Whatever you do, if you're trenching, put in bigger whatever than you need today, so you don't have to re-do it later if you want to add more whatever.

 

[ning]

Ok, somethings fishy here….this is a $2,400 switch. Is this link a reliable site ir something is fishy. This site lists a generac 14 kw with a 200 amp switch for $1700. Ya right, thats like a $5-6 grand product.

generator-warehouse.com is rated "Poor" with 2.4 / 5 on Trustpilot

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[grsthegreat]

My understanding is that the generator warranty will only be valid if the installation is signed off by a manufacturer-approved installer.

I've been looking at getting a 22kW Kohler for my battery-backed system (which, incidentally, would be slightly out of line-of-sight, but there's a complete system disconnect switch immediately next to the power meter, for the grid-tie solar/battery system) and a local dealer is willing to do the final sign-off for a modicum of money if I buy the system from them, and they say they can match the on-line prices.

I can't advise about the placement; for my solar I used a ground mount and dug a 500' trench and used oversized cabling to minimize voltage drop... aesthetically I'd probably go with paying more to stick it behind the house because of noise & view, depending on possible locations for noise & view of course (some people prefer their back yard view). Whatever you do, if you're trenching, put in bigger whatever than you need today, so you don't have to re-do it later if you want to add more whatever.

I dont kniw about kohler, but generac does not require a dealer to install for warranty. As long as its installed per specifications, its warranty is in force. Now, whether you can find a service tech that will warranty a unit he didnt install is another matter. I could care less who installs units i service as long as install is safe and legal. I wont service a unit thats unsafe as i dont want to be caught up in any potential lawsuit if something bad happens due to the install.

 

[Highlandr]

So, on the surface, maybe propane is the safer bet. Less usage, and likely always more reserve on-hand. Also, the propane is hidden back behind the house, where it's probably preferable to mount a generator, rather than sticking the ugly and noisy thing right in my front garden.

I think this the best idea. Generator close to the fuel source which means a short gas line run with whatever regulator the generator requires. Then your long run is direct bury wire which I think will be less prone to trouble than a gas line.

I'd still go with a commercial outfit though.

 

[Larry Caldwell]

I was project manager on a university laboratory project once that had an old natural gas backup generator powered by a Ford V-8 engine. This was 35 years ago, so I don't remember all the details, but we had to move the regulator about 100 feet. Originally the generator was fed by a 100' 2" low pressure line and adding another 100' of line starved the generator. We eventually went to a 4" line. I remember thinking at the time that they should have moved the regulator to the generator location and switched the 2" line to high pressure, but that's not what the mechanical engineer and gas company wanted to do. It worked, I signed off on it, and never gave it another thought.

Natural gas is very low pressure past the regulator, about half of propane pressure. Besides switching out the regulator for one with a larger orifice, the low pressure supply line might be a problem. If you are installing a whole house generator any distance from the regulator, don't assume a 3/4" line will feed it. The generator manufacturer or gas company should help with the calcs. Ask the question before you start building.

 

[ponytug]

I was project manager on a university laboratory project once that had an old natural gas backup generator powered by a Ford V-8 engine. This was 35 years ago, so I don't remember all the details, but we had to move the regulator about 100 feet. Originally the generator was fed by a 100' 2" low pressure line and adding another 100' of line starved the generator. We eventually went to a 4" line. I remember thinking at the time that they should have moved the regulator to the generator location and switched the 2" line to high pressure, but that's not what the mechanical engineer and gas company wanted to do. It worked, I signed off on it, and never gave it another thought.

Natural gas is very low pressure past the regulator, about half of propane pressure. Besides switching out the regulator for one with a larger orifice, the low pressure supply line might be a problem. If you are installing a whole house generator any distance from the regulator, don't assume a 3/4" line will feed it. The generator manufacturer or gas company should help with the calcs. Ask the question before you start building.

Words of wisdom.

I often think that folks overlook the advantages of somewhat increasing the distribution pressure, and then bringing the pressure down to the necessary level at the generator. Low pressure at the generator causes all sorts of runtime issues, often discovered in times of need at full loads. I think the weekly/monthly generator exercise period should have so,e of the time done under at least 80% load.

All the best, Peter

 

[WinterDeere]

I remember thinking at the time that they should have moved the regulator to the generator location and switched the 2" line to high pressure, but that's not what the mechanical engineer and gas company wanted to do. It worked, I signed off on it, and never gave it another thought.

This is exactly what we discussed doing, with our gas company. Right now, we have something like 2 psi coming off the regulator at the tank, to a second regulator at the house, where it steps down to about 0.5 psi before distribution. The generator would either tap off that 2 psi line, or even upstream of that with a separate regulator of its own, if we need to run any sort of distance. A second regulator would go right at the generator, to step down to whatever pressure it requires.

 

[Rustyiron]

Man I knew that NG & LP pressures were low but not that low! Even compared to house drinking water pressures you'd think that you could tape plastic straws together successfully (for gas supply lines) for .5 psi less the physical damage aspect.
Why the overly large pipes with barely existent pressure.
It must be a safety thing that I don't understand.
Any gas guys with an explanation for this hillbilly?

 

[bigtiller]

I worked with residential propane for a while.
We set 10 psi leaving the first stage regulator in a 3/8" copper flex pipe no longer than 100'.
And 11 inches of water column (.40 psi) after the second regulator with a 50% load.
That covered all but one of our installations, which was an industrial bakery with six 1000 gallon tanks piggybacked to each other.

 

[thclimer]

Man I knew that NG & LP pressures were low but not that low! Even compared to house drinking water pressures you'd think that you could tape plastic straws together successfully (for gas supply lines) for .5 psi less the physical damage aspect.
Why the overly large pipes with barely existent pressure.
It must be a safety thing that I don't understand.
Any gas guys with an explanation for this hillbilly?

I think propane is under more pressure because it becomes a liquid at a much lower pressure than natural gas. You can store propane at just a few 100 psi and it will be a liquid, natural gas I believe takes thousands of psi to become liquid.

 

[ponytug]

Man I knew that NG & LP pressures were low but not that low! Even compared to house drinking water pressures you'd think that you could tape plastic straws together successfully (for gas supply lines) for .5 psi less the physical damage aspect.
Why the overly large pipes with barely existent pressure.
It must be a safety thing that I don't understand.
Any gas guys with an explanation for this hillbilly?

I don't know if safety is the reason, but with 11" of water pressure, slow leaks dissipate fairly readily, keeping the concentration below the concentration needed for ignition. (Explosion) Most folks can smell the odorants in propane and natural gas at quite low levels.

All the best,

Peter

 

[Fuddyduddy1952]

When I first had my garage built I got one of these convection heaters I ran unregulated right out of a 500 gallon tank so like 100psi.
It sounded like a jet engine and it heated that big garage in a hurry!

 

[WinterDeere]

I ran unregulated right out of a 500 gallon tank so like 100psi. It sounded like a jet engine and it heated that big garage in a hurry!

lol... only you, Fuddy!

I'm surprised the shut-off valves and everything else on that little heater even work at 100 psi!

I heat our attached garage with a Rinnae "wall furnace", essentially a sealed direct-vent heater that you mount on a wall and feed with propane and electric. No pilot, self-igniting, it's a really nice way to keep a garage warm enough to keep refrigerators and freezers from malfunctioning. The thing uses almost no fuel, we'd go many years between filling our 500 gallon tank with the garage temperature set to 53F, when that was the only appliance running.

 

[Fuddyduddy1952]

I soon had a furnace installed and keep it in the low 50's as well.