Generator

[Gary Fowler]

Well spoken Soundguy. PTO Generators are the only way to go for folks with a 25 HP tractor or larger. NO worry about fuel contamination, battery maintenance, or stopping every 2 days to change oil (is 50 hour oil change really required for those small gas gen sets?) I have been eyeballing a 22 KW gen set that will power my whole house without out worrying about cutting this off or that off. My electrician buddy says that 16 KW is needed for my house in order to run everything including the HVAC during emergencies without fear of overload. I think the 22 KW would be right size so as to not run it at full load especially since it is only a few hundred more than a 12/15. Many sizes available at this website
PTO22-2S and most have free shipping.

 

[Soundguy]

I have a northern tools 13kw genny, and my stepfather bought the 27kw genny from northern.. He runs his with a 1979 JD 2240 with 50pto hp... barks along just fine with amps to spare.

my 13kw unit may be just a hair undersized for my whole house.. but in an emergency.. i'm only concerned about water and a few other criticals, in order to conserve fuel.. etc.. never know how long it will be out. Back in 04, not being able to buy fuel for a couple weeks was a real downer!

soundguy

 

[brandoro]

I bought a PTO generator after I took the wood stove out of my house due to insurance issues (they were charging way too much). I'm not too concerned about loss of power in summer, unless it is extended but, I am quite concerned about loss of power in winter, which can be severe where I live. At the time the 10kw PTO gen was about equal in price with a 3500 w Honda unit. I had a couple of pieces made at the local muffler shop so I can run the tractor inside the shop and exhaust out through the port in the overhead door. The tractor engine heat warms the shop and the power goes to the house via the permanent underground feed. Due care taken to prevent back feed to power system.
Good point about possibly needing the tractor for other things during an outage but, I don't see a problem with leaving the house without power for a couple of hours at a time so I can move snow or whatever else needs to be done.
For me the biggest points in favour of PTO driven are: one less engine to maintain, very dependable and economical engine to operate the generator, ample power output-don't have to worry too much about what is running.

 

[jas67]

Well spoken Soundguy. PTO Generators are the only way to go for folks with a 25 HP tractor or larger.

I wouldn't necessarily say that tractors under 25 HP aren't good candidates for running a PTO generator. If you aren't running electric heating appliances, which is a horribly inefficient use of generator power anyway -- even diesel engines only convert 35-40% of the energy in the fuel to usable power -- you're better off heating with a portable kerosene or propane heater, or running AC, a 5-6 KW generator is more than enough to meet most emergency power needs. So, my little 16 HP B7100 would happily run a 7 or 8 KW PTO generator all day long to meet these needs.

I used a 5.5KW (troybuilt, gas, probably the same one mentioned earlier in this thread) generator during an ice store outage this past winter, and ran my oil furnace, well pump, 2 refrigerators and a freezer, plus lighting, and even the microwave without any problems. We were careful not to run water while using the micowave. We cook with propane, our hot water is a coil off the oil furnace, and we didn't run the electric dryer, so no electric heating appliances here. Now, if it was summer, AC would have been out of the question.

Sizing a generator is as unique as each households needs. I will say that a larger-than-needed generator, dedicator, or PTO-driven will use more fuel than needed at lighter loads than a smaller one.

Since that power outage, I picked up a used, circa-1980, Onan DJB 6KW diesel generator. The specs for it show about 1/3 gal/hour at 1/4 load, and 2/3 gal/hour a full load. It has a 1liter 2-cyl air-cooled diesel engine. running at 1800 RPM (not 3600 RPM like the cheapo troybuilt that I have) The DJC, with a 2-liter 4-cyl diesel engine, produces 12 KW. As expected, 1/4 load is 2/3 gal/hour, and full load is 1 1/3 gal/hour.

Now, based on these specs, at a load of 3 KW, the larger generator is using 2/3 gal/hour, the same amount of fuel that the smaller unit does at a full load of 6 KW.

So, the best size generator is the smallest one that will do the job. This means not running all your loads at the same time.

I can run my 6KW Onan generator on about 8 gallons if Diesel per day. The troybilt used about 12 gal of gas per day.

Now, some people wouldn't mind paying for 20 gal of fuel per day for a little more conveniences, but keep in mind the for an extended, wide-spread outage, you might have trouble finding a place to even purchase fuel, and will want to conserve as much as possible. Often, you can just run the generator a few hours at time as needed. Don't open the refrigerator and freezer doors much, they will stay cold for hours w/o power, the house cool down some, but not unbearably so, between runtimes.

Now, as far as the PTO, vs. dedicated route, there are pros and cons to both. As others have said, if you have one tractor, and it is tied to the generator, you can't clear snow and debris while it is making power. Nothing says you can't just forgo electricity while you do cleanup.

I will say, that a dedicated 1800 RPM diesel generator will be a good bit more efficient than a PTO generator, as to drive a PTO generator, you have transmission losses through two gear boxes, the transmission and PTO gearbox on your tractor, dropping your engine speed to 540 RPM, and then the gearbox on the PTO generator gearing that back up to 1800 or 3600 RPM (depending on whether it is a 4 or 2-pole generator). You can count at at least 15% loss in these two gearboxes. Plus, if you have a hydrostatic transmission, it uses power, even when not being driven (the pump is always active), as does the hydraulic pump that is always pumping oil through your hydraulic system.

Of course, with a dedicated generator, it is one more engine to maintain, and you should run it periodically to keep oil on the rings, and in the head, as well keep the fuel system healthy. If it is a gasoline powered generator, by all means, always use fuel stabilizer. If it is a diesel, use an algeaside.

With a PTO generator, if your tractor is used on a regular basis, you know it is going to be ready-to-go when needed.

If you have natural gas available on your property, that is a great way to power an backup generator system. Outside of earthquake zones, natural gas outages rarely coincide with electric outages (people in hurricane zones may want to correct me if I wrong). Plus with natural gas generators, you don't have to worry about old gasoline gumming up the carburetor.

In any case, whether your choice for backup power is a PTO-powered generator, portable self-powered, or permanent-installed self powered generator, you're in much better shape in the event of an outage, than those that have no generator at all.

 

[dmccarty]

When we bought the tractor part of its sizing was to run a PTO genset.

When it came time to get a generator I did not want to spend the money to get the PTO genset. But I was not buying an el cheapo generator from the big box store either.

We split the difference. One reason I did not have the money for a PTO genset was that I had spent the brass on a DR Mower. I REALLY needed it far more than any type of generator. DR sells a 5.5/6.0KW generator that works on their brush cutters. It will just barely run our well and it might run our water heater. As long as I have water and power for the fridge and freezer we can survive.

So I guess in the end I got a PTO type of generator.

We had the electrician install a 30 amp connection on a panel with a lock out device. We can have grid power or gen power. We control what gets power from the panel in the house. Simple and was $200-300 installed.

Later,
Dan

 

[KeithInSpace]

There are some excellent point...and opinions...being discussed here.

Regarding natural gas loss: There was a hurricane that hit the Virginia coast and ventured into the Northern Virginia area as a very strong Tropical Storm in 2003...I think it was Isabel. It caused widespread and persisting power, municipal water, and natural gas outages, all simultaniously. The water was a really big deal. It took nearly 2 weeks for restaurants in Fairfax County to open. A few opened, but they had to use bottled water for 100% of their operation, including dishwashing, because of possible contamination. That was a real mess.

Being one of those "single tractor" guys, I always have either the backhoe or the bagger on the back of my tractor. Given the 20 minutes of conversion it would take to get the generator attached (pulling a car out, clearing space in the garage to get the BH dismounted, etc.), that isn't too appealing to me.

Also not appealing is getting a whole seperate TRACTOR, as suggested, to run a PTO generator. That would certainly take up more room than any GenSet I could ever purchase. And at that point, I'm still not using my multi-thousand dollar, highly reliable Kubota engine, but the engine of some old tractor I picked up for $2,350 somewhere. And I'm still maintaining another engine/machine.

I have already voiced concern with trusting a $5 carburator. No doubt. The quality of my generator is the weak link in the chain, to be sure. But it uses VERY little fuel and meets all my needs except for the air conditioner. For that matter, I have a small window unit to make at least one bedroom comfortable to sleep in at night.

I have already brought up the subject of a new generator to the CEO/CFO, but with our current unit still (slimly) meeting our needs, it is difficult to justify MORE generator. My best argument is that our unit is quite noisy. But on 2 acres, only one neighbor would even care...and he doesn't care! I've had my eye on a 7kW Honda unit with the super-silent package (under 60dB), but that thing is pretty expensive. Hasn't made the cut.

This is all very wonderful discussion. But it has highlit the fact that everyone's house is very different. NG sounds like a great way to go from a fuel perspective, but you are SOOOOOO hosed if NG service is disrupted. Diesel sounds great, but without a diesel truck, I'd have concerns about EVER having enough fuel on-hand.

Up's and down's to every decision, that much is certain.

 

[zzvyb6]

Here's a 50kw WinPower, 110, 230v, Single and 3 phase capability. Price was $1750 (used. The money was used, too).

The tractor is 35+ hp. I'm supposed to have a JD4020 (100+ hp) to run it according to the expurts. So how do you figure I'm running even the house A/C with this unit and the world not stopping or backing up ???

You just never know the possibilities until desperation shows up at your doorstep. WTF...

 

[KeithInSpace]

Heck of a purchase, Mr. Zzvyb6.

I would imagine that as long as the generator has a fairly efficient bearing setup, it doesn't cost you anything to "flywheel" it. For a generator of that size, a 5kW or 7kW load is pretty close to "flywheel".

I am quite certain your tractor would choke if you came anywhere near 50kW load on that generator. And most folks don't overbuy generators by a factor of three!

You're probably good to a 'starting' load of 25kW and a sustained load of 15kW or 17kW. Of course you could run most houses, including A/C, with that type of power, so you probably wouldn't ever see the difference.

Really good purchase. Betcha that thing weighs a ton or two, huh? LOOOOOTS of copper in that little red can.

 

[jas67]

Diesel sounds great, but without a diesel truck, I'd have concerns about EVER having enough fuel on-hand.

That wouldn't be a concern to most people that heat with fuel oil (diesel). Just add a 12V pump, and a battery (or cables to your truck/car).

 

[KeithInSpace]

Of course. Totally concur. Keep forgetting about that. I grew up on oil heat, too. Those floorboard radiators are the best.

 

[Whitey]

OK........I thank all whom have replied........your ideas are great. I think I like KeithInSpace ideas the best. The only problem is I did not implement them soon enough! We are in day three of our power outage and the boss is not happy. We lost power on Sunday evening at 8:15 PM and power company says maybe by Friday. I at least had the smarts to drive early Monday to a rental yard and grab a generator so we are roughing it but it could be worse. Problem is that the generator has a 250 volt / 30 amp four prong connection and my well is 240 volt / 20 amp 1/2 horse. I am afraid to hot wire it without a neutral and damage the pump. So we are driving into Slippery Rock University and showering there and using spring water (boiled) for everything else.

I am quite sure that this issue will be solved shortly if the boss has anything to say about it.

I am going to buy a generator of some sort and use the breaker idea and back feed my house from the shop and disconnect my main from the power company. After I figure out my wattage needs I will post my wiring ideas on line for comments. I can escape to work, the kids to school, but not the boss. At least this ordeal is forcing us to re-examine our way of life and what we take for granted.

I will say it again.....I am almost embarrassed on how much we are unprepared for this.

So long for now......from us camping in Slippery Rock

 

[Soundguy]

Remember.. 220 is hot and hot... Your pump will run exactly like that.. with a ground for safety.

I wouldn't be wasting the fuel to drive for a shower when i had a genny and a well pump and a few foot of 3 conductor wire laying around.

Heck.. I've bent the wires over and plugged them into the genny socket with no pigtail harness and then wired them into the pump pressure switch and then isolated the pump from the house via breaker before, in emergency power outtages, just to get water going for the animals and the wife...

soundguy

 

[Egon]

Not officially allowed but does work.

Turn off your panel main breaker to hopefully isolate your wiring from the main line supply.

Turn off all the other breakers in the panel. Take two extension cords with male prongs on each end.[ You have to make these up ] Plug into a 120 volt plug-in on your system so one cord feeds each leg of you main panel. Then you can run the generator and use the normal wiring systems for running those items you require like the well pump. All you gotta do is turn on the proper breakers.

I have two very short cords, about one foot long, for this purpose.

 

[Soundguy]

Seems like technically, theoretically speaking here, you could kill the main breaker, and just wire the genny up to the hot side of the well pump, and that would backfeed the house.. at whatever 'load capacity' the circuit for the well pump was sized for.

soundguy

Not officially allowed but does work.

Turn off your panel main breaker to hopefully isolate your wiring from the main line supply.

Turn off all the other breakers in the panel. Take two extension cords with male prongs on each end.[ You have to make these up ] Plug into a 120 volt plug-in on your system so one cord feeds each leg of you main panel. Then you can run the generator and use the normal wiring systems for running those items you require like the well pump. All you gotta do is turn on the proper breakers.

I have two very short cords, about one foot long, for this purpose.

 

[podagrower]

They also make main panel backfeed retrofit kits for most electrical panels. This kit installs a sliding plate between the main breaker and a breaker that goes to your generator. The sliding panel is designed so that only one of these two breakers can be on at a time, either the main breaker providing commercial power, or the backfeed breaker providing generator power, but never both. This kit is far more economical and practical for occasional backup power shifts IMO. They are much easier to install than the other two options. They are also more versatile in that it allows you to feed power to everything that is wired into your panel, within the limits of your generator of course, just like a whole house transfer switch does. These kits are UL approved and run about $150, and can be installed by an electrically savy homeowner. Generator InterLock Kit - Introduction

Hey, hey, hey, these interlock kits are supposed to be a secret. How am I supposed to keep undercutting other electricians prices if everyone know about them???
I installed two of them last weekend and they make for a really clean install. If you use a generator inlet box, you can use a standard cord with a male end and female end. This makes for a professional looking install.
30-Amp Power Inlet Boxes @ Electric Generators Direct - Your Online 30 Amp Power Inlet Box Superstore
50-Amp Power Inlet Boxes @ Electric Generators Direct - Your Online 50 Amp Power Inlet Box Superstore
Those 50 amp twistlock cord caps are not cheap, but ebay is a good place to look sometimes.

 

[Diamondpilot]

All this talk about back feeding the panel makes me think. What was done at my home by the previous owner was to have a 50 amp twist lock plug on the outside of my house adjacent to my breaker panel. Then it goes about 3 feet to a 200 amp 2 way connect master switch. You can either get power from the pole or the 50 amp plug but not both.

My cord that goes from my generator is 25 feet long and has the proper twist lock to mate up to the genny and the proper twist lock to mate up to the house.

I also made a generic cord that is another 25 feet long and has a twist lock to mate up to the house end of the first cord and has male dryer plug on the other end. So you connect the two cords together for 50 feet total and you end up with a cord with the twist lock for the genny end and a dryer plug on the other end. I made this up so my sister or dad could use my genny if needed and all they would have to do is disconnect the dryer, cut off the main breaker in the panel to prevent back feet then fire up the genny to power the whole home via back feed.

I have never had to loan it out but it allows me to have a generic setup that will power most anyone's home with a electric dryer.


As for gas I keep 25 gallons on had at all time. That is 3 days for my genny at my homes load. I put stabilizer in it and at the end of winter or spring if it has not been used in the genny it gets run through my gas truck or car. So what I am saying is I replace the gas twice a year so it is always fresh. I also have a boat that holds 70 gallons of gas and is always filled up at the end of the week to prevent condensation in the tank. It is a EFI motor so it has a electric fuel pump. I have in a pinch, removed the fuel line from the out side of the pump and put on a extension then turned the key on to pump fuel and fill up gas cans. I once had to pump out 60 gallons of the 70 gallons and it went very quick, about 1 hour.

Chris

 

[Egon]

just wire the genny up to the hot side of the well pump, and that would backfeed the house.

Wasn't the fellow a little leery of wiring the 220 side???

 

[Soundguy]

Wasn't the fellow a little leery of wiring the 220 side???

If power is off.. I don't know why.

besides.. that's the only side of the well you can wire.. if you wir ethe other side of the pressure switch.. the thing can't cut off and will blow up!

soundguy

 

[Diamondpilot]

I guess they are getting cheaper every day. I was at Rural King today picking up some blades for my mower and saw they now had PTO Generators. They always had a good price on genny's but this seems real good. A 15,000 watt complete with stand and pto shaft for $999.00

Here is a link

https://www.ruralking.com/Store/detail.aspx?ID=15098

Chris

 

[Egon]

If power is off.. I don't know why.

Sounds like you did not read the posters post and made an interpretation to suit your needs whatever that may be!

Course when the Moon is full one does not need light does one???