Geothermal Loops?

[LD1]

Well finally had time to install over last weekend. Everything went real smooth and seemed to go together as planned. The hardest part for me was the duct work but got it done and up and running. I am amazed at how quite it is when running and that it is handling the house on the 1st stage without any problem but is 20 out so it will get colder soon. I'll try to get some photo's up this weekend.

I am assuming that is a geo-thermal unit you went with?

What did you decide on the loops??

 

[powerstroke444e]

I am assuming that is a geo-thermal unit you went with?

What did you decide on the loops??

Yes its geo thermal I went with 5 ton century 2 stage unit with 3 stage heat backup.
The loops are 3600 of 3/4 geo pipe in 3600' of trench @ 60 inches deep which put me in wet clay bay about foot.
Ask away if anyone has questions.
Local co-op put on dual meters to get power cost down to .075 per kw

 

[LD1]

Yes its geo thermal I went with 5 ton century 2 stage unit with 3 stage heat backup.
The loops are 3600 of 3/4 geo pipe in 3600' of trench @ 60 inches deep which put me in wet clay bay about foot.
Ask away if anyone has questions.
Local co-op put on dual meters to get power cost down to .075 per kw

Did you decide against the slinky due to your 5' trencher limit?

 

[bucktaker]

I need to jump in hear as I need to learn more about Geo thermal
I have 3600 sq foot house including finished basement
Original owner house built in 1995
Propane 95 % with central AC
Central unit went out 2006 replaced with Trane heat pump with original propane furnace as supplememtnal heat.
First couple of years seemed to be a cost saver over just propane
But it seems the electric rates have climbed so my level bill electric is 220.00 and I use 600 gals propane annually

Long range planning tells me to get prepared to replace my 1995 vintage propane furnace. Can you add Geo thermal my set up ? will I lose my Trane heat pump? what part of geo- therm is DIY?

 

[LD1]

Can you add Geo thermal my set up ?

Geo can be with propane supplement. Like your Air-to-air unit, geo needs backup. Allthough it isnt used as much as with an air-to-air unit.

will I lose my Trane heat pump?

No need at all for it with GEO. It is more efficent in BOTH heating AND cooling modes. If it is REALLY frigid out and you need backup heat, that Trane isnt going to do anything

what part of geo- therm is DIY?

Not much unless you have a way to dig thousands of feet of trench. (trencher or backhoe)

OR have a machine to charge the freon.

From what I have heard/read on GEO units, 50% of the cost is materials, 40% is the excavation, and the other 10% is installation and charging of the unit.

So unless you have a way to dig the trenches, it isnt really worth trying to do anything yourself. Just stay out of the way and let the contractors work their magic:thumbsup:

 

[Chilly807]

Can you add Geo thermal my set up ? will I lose my Trane heat pump? what part of geo- therm is DIY?

Geothermal in general is best as a designed-when-built heat system, but they can be retrofitted. Our's is designed to be used as a water-to-water system with infloor radiant heat, no A/C.

LD1 is correct about the heat pump you have now, unless it's needed to boost normal output of the geo system, it'll be redundant and less efficient to boot.

We worked with the contractor installing both the ground loops and the infloor piping. Our ground loops consist of 3500 ft of pipe laid out in "slinky" style runs in three trenches. Each trench is 6 feet deep, six feet wide, and about 100 feet long.

Excavation cost was about $1200, based on one excavator working for a full day.

Total system cost in 2008 was approx. $20K, which included everything for new construction.

Sean

 

[powerstroke444e]

Did you decide against the slinky due to your 5' trencher limit?

I have the equipment to do both and had acess to a bigger trencher but purchased the software from company that I decided to go with many single pipe in a trench as it gave me the best numbers. I don't think there is a wrong way as long as you soil test and have the loop design software alone with manual J and manual d to back up the calculations.

I have several more we are going to install so the software will pay off in 1 job. Mine was a DIY but I have equipment partners and licenses to do it all, this was just 1st time for us to do a complete install for our selves and put our name on it.

I would say that a DIY is possible but pay for some one to give you some advice.
My biggest cost was the system and software. The most time consuming part was the duct work and planning. If I had it to do over I would would change very little but there is alot plan and if you mess something up it could cost $1000's.

 

[buckeyefarmer]

Geo can be a DIY, if you know what you're doing. I'm in the middle of installing two geothermal systems myself. I started by taking the IGSHPA geothermal class and became an accredited installer, then bought design software and designed the systems, including a manual J. Then I bought a backhoe, and now I am putting in slinky's. I put my 2nd slinky in today and have it on a pressure test before I backfill it tomorrow. In the end I will have 2 systems in my house for about $12k give or take, plus the backhoe. I was getting quotes of up to $40k to do these systems. I am using standalone package units, not split. They come precharged, so you don't mess with freon lines. Units are made by HeatControllers, and I used their design software. I brought all my loops inside, and will purge the loops individually with my QT non-pressurized flow centers.
I first designed using straight loops, and quickly changed to slinky's. straight loops are a LOT of digging, and you can achieve the same thing with slinky's, a lot less digging, and just a little bit more pipe. The pipe is one of the cheapest parts of the system.
I'm planning to write it up as a project when I get done, it's taking awhile because I don't have much spare time to work on it.

 

[Redneck in training]

Geo can be with propane supplement. Like your Air-to-air unit, geo needs backup. Allthough it isnt used as much as with an air-to-air unit.



No need at all for it with GEO. It is more efficent in BOTH heating AND cooling modes. If it is REALLY frigid out and you need backup heat, that Trane isnt going to do anything




Not much unless you have a way to dig thousands of feet of trench. (trencher or backhoe)

OR have a machine to charge the freon.

From what I have heard/read on GEO units, 50% of the cost is materials, 40% is the excavation, and the other 10% is installation and charging of the unit.

So unless you have a way to dig the trenches, it isnt really worth trying to do anything yourself. Just stay out of the way and let the contractors work their magic:thumbsup:

The units are supplied charged with refrigerant. There are heat exchangers for outside loop usually filled with glycol mix. No gage is required but depending on your installation you might need powerfull charge pump to expel air.The inside loops are system dependent. If it is forced air or hydronic. You can do a lot DIY. The dimensions of forced air furnace are similar to gas fired units but might require duct modification. The outside loop has usually two pumps that have to be wired to the unit.
The hydronic system is somewhat more involved due to larger number of thermostats, pumps and/or automatic valves but also doable DIY.

 

[bucktaker]

Ok I guess I thought Geo therm didnt need supplemental heat from a electric or gas heat source. The only way it would be cost effective for me is if I needed to replace both my heat pump and my propane furnace. I'm still under warranty 10yr compressor, 10yr parts, 10yr labor on the heat pump.

just for my info
Since my mechanicals are in the walkout basement if and when I go Geo could my concrete floor be opened and a pit dug that would then allow lines to be bored under the slab and footer to a outside pit then connected to geo loops at depth? Then the condensor unit is in place of existing HVAC connected to ductwork and cooling loops?

As far as DIY sounds like the excavation could be done with rental equipment.
Rent excavator backfill with kubota tractor

 

[JimRB]

Message - TractorByNet.com Photo Gallery My geothermal has no booster heat but there are lots of caveats. My earth is warmer than your earth. Cold day is 0 and that is really rare. Most days get above freezing in the winter and rare is a cold snap of more than a few days where the high is less than 30F. There are maps available but it looks like my earth is 10 warmer than yours. Shallow ground water temperature map

Here is a picture of my messy basement. Message - TractorByNet.com Photo Gallery
OK, just the mechanical room but the rest isn't all that different. Note the air handler has two lines from the loop pump on the back wall. Note the loops go out low but obscured by the fan or some other junk. That is about 5 feet below ground. Note the waste heat recovery which feeds the hot water heater just to the right of the air handler. Switch to hot water heating elements is turned off 9 or more months of the year as the waste heat recovery creates enough hot water for us.

I thought I had posted a link for earth temps. you can Bing or Google for geothermal ground soil temps to find maps.

Some manufacturers will only sell to professional contractors so DIY requires some hoops to jump through. You have to know how to purge the air from the slinky or ground loops is the biggest challenge. You also need good water for the ground loops. You do not want acidic water eating up the plumbing in the air handler. My installer brought his own water.

 

[bruceha2000]

You guys are killing me here... our last bill was for 948 kwh, by the time all the fees and taxes are added in it was nearly $160... slightly over 12 cents per kwh.

I'll take it! 13.5 cents here and that is BEFORE all the fees/taxes/etc.

 

[lilranch2001]

1716KWH here on the bill I received today, $199

 

[mfreund]

I know I am late to the party but we drilled our loops. 4 tons of capacity in 4 150 ft deep wells. My installer recomended the drilling because of hitting ground water before 150 ft. He reasoned the water gave better heat transfer than dirt to pipe contact. My system has been in since 2006. The winter electric bills are under $200 in the really cold months and under 100 running the cooling in the summer. These are the highs, most months are less. We have electric resistance heat for back-up. Not the most efficient but very easy for operation. Our electric company offered rebates on the wells, desuperheater and efficency rating. The $20,000 was reduced to 15,800. The only propane we use is the clothes dryer and whole house back up generator. We have not filled the tank since Dec 2005.

 

[powerstroke444e]

Well have had the system running for the 1st full month and the geo and electric water heater used $116 of electric or 1660kwh of power all in all I could not be happier with how it works for the size of the house. We only had 4 days of real cold windy(35mph) weather around 10F but it didn't seem to bother it at all. So far I wouldn't change anything, its real nice to not be going out and checking the propane level.

 

[Cat_Driver]

I'll add this about saving electricity. I heard a radio talk show that a guy was being delayed a solar permit for so long that he had to sue to get permitted for solar.

In L.A. the city makes money on the utilities and if the people pay less in utilities the city makes less money. Also I think the permit price was astronomical. If they don't get it one way they get it another way.

 

[bucktaker]

Repost below my eariler question about adding a geo unit if my current failed.

just for my info
Since my mechanicals are in the walkout basement if and when I go Geo could my concrete floor be opened and a pit dug that would then allow lines to be bored under the slab and footer to a outside pit then connected to geo loops at depth? Then the condensor unit is in place of existing HVAC connected to ductwork and cooling loops?

As far as DIY sounds like the excavation could be done with rental equipment.
Rent excavator backfill with kubota tractor[/QUOTE]

 

[LD1]

Well have had the system running for the 1st full month and the geo and electric water heater used $116 of electric or 1660kwh of power all in all I could not be happier with how it works for the size of the house. We only had 4 days of real cold windy(35mph) weather around 10F but it didn't seem to bother it at all. So far I wouldn't change anything, its real nice to not be going out and checking the propane level.

WOW....7 cents/kwh

We are 10 cents here two states over.

That kwh usage would have cost me $166