Getting Closer, Am I unfair?

Bob_Skurka · Aug 13, 2004

Neil & Don, I will have to side with the Kioti CK30 over the Kubota B2910; as someone who sits his rear end in the seat of the B2910 on a regular basis I can tell you I like the machine, but the more I use the little TC24D the more I become disenchanted with the larger Kubota. When the Kubota was purchased by my neighbor and myself, we went out looking and were pretty blind to much what I have come to learn over the past several years. And there were fewer viable choices back then, so we were pretty much limited to the big 3. So we decided on a 30hp machine and looked at price and the Kubota was pretty much the low price machine and in our ignorance it seemed like the right machine. And don't get me wrong, it is a good machine. I actually like it a lot. Ergonomically it is great. It has been trouble free with zero repairs. The engine is amazingly smooth and reliable. But the loader is weak. When I added the 12LA to the NH, it seemed to be just as strong as the LA402 but I didn't bother to dig up any specs on the 402, I just figured the larger bucket on the 402 made the bucket "feel" like it had much greater resistance. But then I started doing things with both tractors where I alternated from one to the other and it really became apparent that the little 12LA is the equal to the larger LA402. And the tighter turning of the smaller TC made using the loader much faster in practical use when working between trees or planters or other obsticals. The B2910 will pull a box blade with much better results (because the blade is too big for the smaller lower hp TC) so it has its place. But I tend to now favor the TC if only because it is more effective with the loader and that is due to not only loader capacity but also greater manuverability. Now if I had a Power Trac with a loader, that would simply blow away any of the above mentioned machines, but I don't have one so I admit I don't own the best, but I also will say that (at least on paper) the CK30 is going to better the B7800/B2910 based on my experience with the B2910.

I will also say that the L3130 will blow away the CK30 and I will stick with my original assertation that the DX33 will also best the CK30 on numerous fronts. And I will continue to say that the CK30 is not in the same class as the L3130 or the DX33. The CK30 is in the same class as the B7800/B2910 as well as being in the same class as the DX29.

cptdave · Aug 13, 2004

JP, what type of flying do you do?
Cpt.dave

Durbob · Aug 13, 2004

How does the Mahindra 2015 compare to the ck20.? Are they about the same size and specs? In the advertisements i've seen the Mahindra is a little cheaper and has a mitsubishi engine. I wonder how they compare as far as creature comforts. At the fair a guy quoted me 11,600 on a 2015hst with fel and that was without trying to deal with him. The kiotis ck20hst are advertised in the paper for 12,000 with fel.
I'd say if i was ready to buy now than it would probably come down to those two. The Mahindra is a decent sized machine although i haven't seen a Kioti up close to compare size with. I would really rather have about 25hp though, and the Mahindra looks big enough to throw 25hp into. Any thoughts on that?

Bob_Skurka · Aug 13, 2004

Durbob, I am sorry but I have no idea! I've never even seen a Mahindra in my area. The area I am in is pretty saturated with the Big 3 Dealers, one of the Big 3 dealers just added Branson, Kioti is finally moving into the area, they now have 2 dealers about an hour away. Prices on the Big 3 brands in my area are low so that may be keeping out some of the minor brands because they don't have a large price advantage.

I paid under $14,000 (including taxes/delivery/etc) for a 2003 NH TC24D-HST with 12LA loader . . . prices are up somewhat since last summer and the model is now the TC24DA, but I suspect that in my area I could get the newer model at about $15,000 delivered to my door from my local dealer who will pick it up and service it. I don't know how the TC24 price compares to the Kioti or Mahindra pricing but the TC has 24hp versus 20. Also, regarding the CK20 is $12,000 with FEL, is that gear or HST? And is the Mahindra gear or HST? Does your pricing include taxes/delivery? It is really only constructive to price similarly equiped machines to similarly equiped machines unless you factor in the upgrades/downgrades into the pricing.

KiotiJohn · Aug 13, 2004

( John . . . I wrote it as bait for Don . . . he didn't really bite on the bait as hard as I hoped. )
I rather figured that was the case, but how about all the others reading this that don't know what's going on between Don and you? Isn't it a disservice to them on some level?
I do agree, to some extent, that the CK25 is underpowered for the frame, but it will do amazingly well. Had I been making the decisions on new models, however, I would have skipped the CK25, gone with the CK30 and introduced a CK40 as well, if keeping the DK45 was necessary. The DK40 doesn't appear to sell all that well, being between the 35 and 45, good sellers, but would be a good model for a CK, with 20, 30, and 40 HP models available. I have driven my cousin's TC33 gear, no frills, no loader, just pulling a bush hog. It's a very good and strong tractor. I wish it had HST so I could judge it that way against the CK30, but one can't have everything! John

KiotiJohn · Aug 13, 2004

( How does the Mahindra 2015 compare to the ck20.? Are they about the same size and specs? In the advertisements i've seen the Mahindra is a little cheaper and has a mitsubishi engine. I wonder how they compare as far as creature comforts. )
Durbob, I looked at the Mahindra, but didn't like the dealer so we didn't get really deep into it. It appeared to be a well made, pretty well laid out tractor. I'm not sure it includes the valve block for the hydraulics and the joystick as the CK20 does, so that's a consideration as this will raise the price by hundreds of dollars. Otherwise it's a pretty good price. Compare the two with exactly what all comes with it as far as features go, and consider what will cost extra to make them equal. John

shoppintractors · Aug 13, 2004

I will also say that the L3130 will blow away the CK30 
Bob, the L3130 has a 5" longer wheelbase than the CK30 and 8" longer wheelbase than the DX33. It is a larger tractor and should be able to blow both tractors away.

 I will stick with my original assertation that the DX33 will also best the CK30 on numerous fronts. 

Bob, I think you'll have to hang a small pacaderm off the 3 point hitch on the DX33 to attempt to utilize the breakout force you tout so highly, stressing the entire frame. The CK30 has more engineered weight built in (plus 3" longer wheel base) which should mean less weight has to be added to the tractor, stressing the frame & 3 point less. IMO the CK30 will stand on its own against the DX33. Both tractors are good tractors. Both tractors have pro's and con's. It boils down to what you want to use them for.

Don

Bob_Skurka · Aug 13, 2004

I'm not sure what the big advantage of the 3" longer wheelbase is on the CK30, but that seems to be a big deal for you. When I am working on tractors, and when I worked on loaders in the commercial enviornment, and when I worked on forklifts, I always found that the greatest capacity machine in the smallest physical size was a big advantage. You may say the ride will be smoother with the 3" wheelbase increase the CK has, but I don't see that as a real world advantage.

And your arguement that you make about stress really can't be backed up factually. The reality is that a properly engineered product can deal with stress with metalurgy or design, or both. My FIL, the structural engineer, designs buildings to deal with all sorts of stress loads and doesn't do it by increasing mass. Bigger is not always better . . . most men prefer not to have a fat wife, and I'm sure most women prefer not to have husbands with bellies that flop over their belts.

I do know that the DX has and additional 4.6 PTO HP than the CK30 which would give the DX an advantage with PTO powered implements.

I am sticking with my assertation that the DX33 bests the CK30.

PS . . . on an earlier post where you refuted Neil Messick, I think you took him somewhat out of context -unless I didnt understand his post. When I looked over his orignal post, I think he was referring to pricing & size, which is roughly similar. The CK does, however have greater features and capacities, as I did point out.

shoppintractors · Aug 13, 2004

I'm not sure what the big advantage of the 3" longer wheelbase is on the CK30, but that seems to be a big deal for you. 
Larger footprint translates into greater stability, especially with front end loader work.

 You may say the ride will be smoother with the 3" wheelbase increase the CK has, but I don't see that as a real world advantage. 
10 years ago I would agree with you. Starting today and looking 10 to 15 years into the future that extra 3" of wheelbase and a good spring suspension seat looks better and better.

And your arguement that you make about stress really can't be backed up factually. 
I keep visualizing pictures from this thread....
Major Structual Failure Thread

 I do know that the DX has and additional 4.6 PTO HP than the CK30 which would give the DX an advantage with PTO powered implements. 
I will agree with you except, I get 3.4 PTO HP difference. 23.5 for the CK30 and 26.9 for the DX33.

I am sticking with my assertation that the DX33 bests the CK30 
Well Bob.......we have exchanged a lot of information in this thread. Many valid points on both sides of the fence. I'll go out on a limb and say were both right. (Did I really say that? /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif) It's really up to the individual to go out and sit in the seat of both tractors, demo them as thoroughly as possible, define the uses, set the priorities, compare prices between the CK30 and the DX33 then go for it.

Don

Bob_Skurka · Aug 13, 2004

3" longer does not necessarily equal greater stability. Lower center of gravity does equal greater stability. I don't know which tractor has that.

Regarding the smoother ride, I still don't really see that as any issue.

Regarding PTO HP, I pulled the numbers of GEAR versus GEAR for the 2 machines right off the specs from the manufacturers. HST versus HST might be a bit different. Not sure which you used, but that could easily account for the differnent numbers.

Regarding Stress and the link. So? Any machine can be abused. Any machine can have a structural flaw in the metalurgy. Any machine can be a "lemon." Any brand can suffer from that from time to time. But those are not normal. Heavy does not mean strong. Thicker does not even mean strong. The science of metalurgy is very interesting, thin alloys can be stronger and less brittle than thick castings.

Regarding the fact that we are both right. . . hmmmm? OK. I'll buy into that, this has gone on long enough.