Getting Closer, Am I unfair?
- Thread starter JP11
- Start date
- Views: 4368
Bob_Skurka
Super Member
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2003
- Messages
- 7,615
JP, I don't think you will find any 30hp machine that will be able to effectively use a 7' rear blade in the snow. In fact, my experience is that a 5' rear blade on a Kubota B2910 is just about right in the snow, and that is with loaded tires and the FEL attached for extra weight. Pushing snow is very taxing, the tractor will slip and slide in the opposite direction of the way the snow blade is angled. If you want to move snow fast, then look to a snow blower. There is no comparision between the speed of a blower and using a blade. I use a 60" Buhler Farm King blower on my TC24D and it has the power to bust through drifts.
You seem to be looking at a lot of different classes of machines. The SUB-CUT Massey is less capable than the Kioti CK20, which is really a small frame CUT. Other small frame CUTs to look at that would compare to the CK20 would be the JD 4110, the NH TC21 or TC24 and the similar Farmalls, as well as the Kubota B7500, B2410 or B7610. Bear in mind, some of these small frame units will also compare very well to the mid-frame CK25 in terms of hp and loader capacity, despite the fact that they are physically smaller machines. I would completely eliminate looking at the SUB-CUT class of machine as they simply do no have the ground clearance. However, many of the small frame CUTs will surprise you with their capabilities, and they will be lower priced than the mid-or-large frame units. For the price versus features, you might want to also look at the JD 990, NH TC30 and Kubota B7800.
You seem to be looking at a lot of different classes of machines. The SUB-CUT Massey is less capable than the Kioti CK20, which is really a small frame CUT. Other small frame CUTs to look at that would compare to the CK20 would be the JD 4110, the NH TC21 or TC24 and the similar Farmalls, as well as the Kubota B7500, B2410 or B7610. Bear in mind, some of these small frame units will also compare very well to the mid-frame CK25 in terms of hp and loader capacity, despite the fact that they are physically smaller machines. I would completely eliminate looking at the SUB-CUT class of machine as they simply do no have the ground clearance. However, many of the small frame CUTs will surprise you with their capabilities, and they will be lower priced than the mid-or-large frame units. For the price versus features, you might want to also look at the JD 990, NH TC30 and Kubota B7800.
Bob_Skurka
Super Member
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2003
- Messages
- 7,615
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( So.. I should look at
DX29 L2910 and TC30 as competitors then?
or.. If I get crazy.. DX40 and L3830?
JP )</font>
The TC29 - DX29 is a full featured tractor, it would compare to the CK30(?) or B2910.
The TC30 is a value tractor, it would compare to the B7800.
DX29 L2910 and TC30 as competitors then?
or.. If I get crazy.. DX40 and L3830?
JP )</font>
The TC29 - DX29 is a full featured tractor, it would compare to the CK30(?) or B2910.
The TC30 is a value tractor, it would compare to the B7800.
shoppintractors
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2003
- Messages
- 1,219
- Location
- Southeast, Michigan
- Tractor
- Shoppin', Formerly Ford 1220, 7106 FEL, 60
<font color="blue"> I still believe the 3 tractors are fairly mis-matched machines and of different classes. </font>
I would not consider a comparison between the Kioti CK30 and the Kubota 3130 an apples to apples comparison. The L3130 has a longer wheelbase, is heavier with beefier hydraulics. The DK line of Kioti's would line up better with the L3130.
Spec for Spec the CK30 rules over the B2910. In my opinion the CK30 fits between the B2910 and the L3130. Pretty much in a class of it's own when comparing the Kioti and Kubota.
When comparing the DX29/DX33 my opinion is that the CK30 falls smack in the middle of these two machine. The DX's holding the edge in the FEL department. The CK30 holds the lead at the 3 point lift (CK30 - 1764 lbs vs. DX's,TC's - 1635 lbs.) The CK30 also holds the edge with a longer wheelbase (66.1" vs. 63".) The CK30 also has the leading edge in the weight department (CK - 3055 lbs. vs. DX's, TC's - 2474 lbs.)
I've had the opportunity to sit in the drivers seat of the Farmall DX's the New Holland TC's and the Kioti CK's. The curved arm loader visibility is comparable on all of them and I would not rate one better than the other from a visibility standpoint.
My personal opinion is the CK30 "tractor" holds the edge over the DX/TC's 29/33. The FEL for the DX/TC's 29/33 holds the edge over the CK30's - KL130 loader. The Spec's show the CK30, has a longer wheelbase, longer overall length and a more mass(weight). Which suggests the CK30 would make for a more stable operating tractor while doing front end loader work. (Figuring the same amount of ballast is hanging from the three point of the DX and/or the CK.)
Don
I would not consider a comparison between the Kioti CK30 and the Kubota 3130 an apples to apples comparison. The L3130 has a longer wheelbase, is heavier with beefier hydraulics. The DK line of Kioti's would line up better with the L3130.
Spec for Spec the CK30 rules over the B2910. In my opinion the CK30 fits between the B2910 and the L3130. Pretty much in a class of it's own when comparing the Kioti and Kubota.
When comparing the DX29/DX33 my opinion is that the CK30 falls smack in the middle of these two machine. The DX's holding the edge in the FEL department. The CK30 holds the lead at the 3 point lift (CK30 - 1764 lbs vs. DX's,TC's - 1635 lbs.) The CK30 also holds the edge with a longer wheelbase (66.1" vs. 63".) The CK30 also has the leading edge in the weight department (CK - 3055 lbs. vs. DX's, TC's - 2474 lbs.)
I've had the opportunity to sit in the drivers seat of the Farmall DX's the New Holland TC's and the Kioti CK's. The curved arm loader visibility is comparable on all of them and I would not rate one better than the other from a visibility standpoint.
My personal opinion is the CK30 "tractor" holds the edge over the DX/TC's 29/33. The FEL for the DX/TC's 29/33 holds the edge over the CK30's - KL130 loader. The Spec's show the CK30, has a longer wheelbase, longer overall length and a more mass(weight). Which suggests the CK30 would make for a more stable operating tractor while doing front end loader work. (Figuring the same amount of ballast is hanging from the three point of the DX and/or the CK.)
Don
Bob_Skurka
Super Member
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2003
- Messages
- 7,615
Don, you and I are going to have to agree to disagree on this. I think that some tractors are made for some things and other tractors are made for other things.
To me (again my opinion) the CK30 runs up against the B7800/B2910 class of machine, and I agree with you that it outclasses those machines (remember I said I like the Kiotis and have said it in several threads, wouldn't buy one until a dealership opens up close by, but I still like them).
I also think the 3130 outclasses the B2910/B7800 and would not really compare them to each other.
But I also look at size and weight and say that just for the sake of having it, there is no advantage. You can always ballast up a tractor for stability but you can't lighten a heavy one when you want to be softer on the ground.
Placing the CK30 between the DX29/DX33 seems valid, provided we consider the loader work would not require digging. Breakout force is more of an issue when digging than lifting and I would strongly favor the tractor with higher breakout force on the loader, even to the point of giving up a bit on the lift capacity if I had to (although the NH/Farmall & larger Kubota exceed the CK's loader on all counts). It doesn't do much good to have a "theoretical" lift capacity if you can't dig it out and break it free. I think FEL performance is pretty critical on that point and it is one thing that many people fail to give the proper amount credence to. The NH/Farmall loader has 700# greater breakout force, that is substantially more than the Kioti loader.
As for 3pt capacity, again I have stated on numerous threads that I think much of that is irrelevant because most every tractor on the market has the ability to lift so much on the 3 point that the front end (even with a FEL attached) can come right off the ground. The average CUT user (even an exceptional one) would probably never engage an implement on a small or medium CUT that would actually be near the top range of the 3pts capacity. Mind you I have lifted my front end numerous times, but it was with implements that were still well below the theoretical capacity. So what good is it to have the theoretical power to lift a house with the 3pt if the rest of the tractor won't cooperate? (and I have yet to play with a tractor that would).
Physical size is one of those "trade off" type issues, as size increases then the ability to maneuver tends to decrease. So longer wheelbases might make for a slightly smoother ride, but likely will trade off to a larger turning radius. Heavier weight also uses more hp to simply move and turn the tractor, theoretically yielding less available for actual implement use. Heavier does give better traction and potentially a more stable ride, but only if the C.O.G. is as low or lower on the heavier machine. Stability comes from many factors, not just weight. To say a heavier tractor is a better FEL tractor is not accurate simply because the effective use of the FEL is based on numerous factors, one of the most important is manuverability, and for that SS on a NH blows away everything except for the Power Trac articulated tractors.
I guess I would say that I am not going to convince you one way or another, nor will I try. I simply conteded, and still do, that the DX33 and the L3130 outclass the CK30. The fact that they also outclass the B2910, B7800, TC29, and DX29 seems to be irrelevant because those machines are clearly outclassed by the DX33 and L3130 and were only mentioned as examples. The fact that a CK30 outclasses B2910 and B7800 is also irrelevant. There is some question in my mind regarding which is better between the CK30 and the TC/DX29, but that would depend on if I was going to do any loader work, if so, I would tip the advantage to the TC/DX29 for its added manuverability and added FEL capacity. Realistically any of them (CK, TC, DX, B or L with 30hp) will pull/power the same mower deck or box blade size.
To me (again my opinion) the CK30 runs up against the B7800/B2910 class of machine, and I agree with you that it outclasses those machines (remember I said I like the Kiotis and have said it in several threads, wouldn't buy one until a dealership opens up close by, but I still like them).
I also think the 3130 outclasses the B2910/B7800 and would not really compare them to each other.
But I also look at size and weight and say that just for the sake of having it, there is no advantage. You can always ballast up a tractor for stability but you can't lighten a heavy one when you want to be softer on the ground.
Placing the CK30 between the DX29/DX33 seems valid, provided we consider the loader work would not require digging. Breakout force is more of an issue when digging than lifting and I would strongly favor the tractor with higher breakout force on the loader, even to the point of giving up a bit on the lift capacity if I had to (although the NH/Farmall & larger Kubota exceed the CK's loader on all counts). It doesn't do much good to have a "theoretical" lift capacity if you can't dig it out and break it free. I think FEL performance is pretty critical on that point and it is one thing that many people fail to give the proper amount credence to. The NH/Farmall loader has 700# greater breakout force, that is substantially more than the Kioti loader.
As for 3pt capacity, again I have stated on numerous threads that I think much of that is irrelevant because most every tractor on the market has the ability to lift so much on the 3 point that the front end (even with a FEL attached) can come right off the ground. The average CUT user (even an exceptional one) would probably never engage an implement on a small or medium CUT that would actually be near the top range of the 3pts capacity. Mind you I have lifted my front end numerous times, but it was with implements that were still well below the theoretical capacity. So what good is it to have the theoretical power to lift a house with the 3pt if the rest of the tractor won't cooperate? (and I have yet to play with a tractor that would).
Physical size is one of those "trade off" type issues, as size increases then the ability to maneuver tends to decrease. So longer wheelbases might make for a slightly smoother ride, but likely will trade off to a larger turning radius. Heavier weight also uses more hp to simply move and turn the tractor, theoretically yielding less available for actual implement use. Heavier does give better traction and potentially a more stable ride, but only if the C.O.G. is as low or lower on the heavier machine. Stability comes from many factors, not just weight. To say a heavier tractor is a better FEL tractor is not accurate simply because the effective use of the FEL is based on numerous factors, one of the most important is manuverability, and for that SS on a NH blows away everything except for the Power Trac articulated tractors.
I guess I would say that I am not going to convince you one way or another, nor will I try. I simply conteded, and still do, that the DX33 and the L3130 outclass the CK30. The fact that they also outclass the B2910, B7800, TC29, and DX29 seems to be irrelevant because those machines are clearly outclassed by the DX33 and L3130 and were only mentioned as examples. The fact that a CK30 outclasses B2910 and B7800 is also irrelevant. There is some question in my mind regarding which is better between the CK30 and the TC/DX29, but that would depend on if I was going to do any loader work, if so, I would tip the advantage to the TC/DX29 for its added manuverability and added FEL capacity. Realistically any of them (CK, TC, DX, B or L with 30hp) will pull/power the same mower deck or box blade size.
THanks to all. It's an interesting thing to think about. There is no ONE tractor that will do it all.
The reason I was staying away from the value tractors.. HST is almost a necessity. I got my wife out of her manual transmission car a couple years ago. I used to cringe watching her drive a standard.
As for the snowblower. I will have a gravel drive. I thought the expense of the blower (i would want a front mount) and it's ability to throw rocks... I'd be better off pushing it.
JP
The reason I was staying away from the value tractors.. HST is almost a necessity. I got my wife out of her manual transmission car a couple years ago. I used to cringe watching her drive a standard.
As for the snowblower. I will have a gravel drive. I thought the expense of the blower (i would want a front mount) and it's ability to throw rocks... I'd be better off pushing it.
JP
Bob_Skurka
Super Member
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2003
- Messages
- 7,615
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( THanks to all. It's an interesting thing to think about. There is no ONE tractor that will do it all.
The reason I was staying away from the value tractors.. HST is almost a necessity. I got my wife out of her manual transmission car a couple years ago. I used to cringe watching her drive a standard.
As for the snowblower. I will have a gravel drive. I thought the expense of the blower (i would want a front mount) and it's ability to throw rocks... I'd be better off pushing it.
JP )</font>
Many of the value tractors have an optional HST, at least I know that is true with the NH TC30 and the Kubota B7800.
As for a snowblower, I will tell you that a front mount blower is the best of all worlds when it comes to moving snow. My Cub Cadet garden tractor does an amazing job moving snow. But the 60" Farm King is a 3pt blower, it was $1400 (delivered in Dec '03), so it was less than 1/2 the price of a typical front mount. It is pretty easy to use. Certainly much easier & faster to use than a rear blade & FEL combo. So I think you might want to keep the thoughts of a rear mount blower in your mind, if it is within budget. Also, my neighbor's drive is pretty bumpy gravel, but when we get heavy snows I go over an blow out his drive and parking pad. There are skid shoes on the bottom of the blower units to keep you from throwing rocks. Also, if you have position control on the 3pt, you can very easily regulate the height of the blower to stay just above the gravel. Using a rear mount blower is actually easier than I thought it would be (now that I have one winter season of use with one, and 10 years of use with a front blower).
And don't think that there is no ONE tractor that can accomplish your tasks. You really need to clearly define the tasks, and then pick the best compramise. As you are in the looking stages, I would also have you look at the Power Trac forum. Those tractors are very odd looking, but they are amazing things to work with. Today there is a PT422 in my yard and while that unit is too small for your property, it will out mow, out climb, out load and out dig any comparable size unit. Power Trac makes every size imaginable from small to very very large. They are not suitable for farming, but they are very useful for property maintainence, and a 30hp unit will easily do TWICE and more likley THREE TIMES the front end loader work as any tractor discussed in any of the posts on this thread. The have front mounted implements that are very well made and I'm sure they have a couple suitable designs that would easily accomplish the tasks you laid out so far. In fact, they would probably be my first choice if I was starting from scratch. Not that I am trying to confuse you with additional choices!!!!
The reason I was staying away from the value tractors.. HST is almost a necessity. I got my wife out of her manual transmission car a couple years ago. I used to cringe watching her drive a standard.
As for the snowblower. I will have a gravel drive. I thought the expense of the blower (i would want a front mount) and it's ability to throw rocks... I'd be better off pushing it.
JP )</font>
Many of the value tractors have an optional HST, at least I know that is true with the NH TC30 and the Kubota B7800.
As for a snowblower, I will tell you that a front mount blower is the best of all worlds when it comes to moving snow. My Cub Cadet garden tractor does an amazing job moving snow. But the 60" Farm King is a 3pt blower, it was $1400 (delivered in Dec '03), so it was less than 1/2 the price of a typical front mount. It is pretty easy to use. Certainly much easier & faster to use than a rear blade & FEL combo. So I think you might want to keep the thoughts of a rear mount blower in your mind, if it is within budget. Also, my neighbor's drive is pretty bumpy gravel, but when we get heavy snows I go over an blow out his drive and parking pad. There are skid shoes on the bottom of the blower units to keep you from throwing rocks. Also, if you have position control on the 3pt, you can very easily regulate the height of the blower to stay just above the gravel. Using a rear mount blower is actually easier than I thought it would be (now that I have one winter season of use with one, and 10 years of use with a front blower).
And don't think that there is no ONE tractor that can accomplish your tasks. You really need to clearly define the tasks, and then pick the best compramise. As you are in the looking stages, I would also have you look at the Power Trac forum. Those tractors are very odd looking, but they are amazing things to work with. Today there is a PT422 in my yard and while that unit is too small for your property, it will out mow, out climb, out load and out dig any comparable size unit. Power Trac makes every size imaginable from small to very very large. They are not suitable for farming, but they are very useful for property maintainence, and a 30hp unit will easily do TWICE and more likley THREE TIMES the front end loader work as any tractor discussed in any of the posts on this thread. The have front mounted implements that are very well made and I'm sure they have a couple suitable designs that would easily accomplish the tasks you laid out so far. In fact, they would probably be my first choice if I was starting from scratch. Not that I am trying to confuse you with additional choices!!!!
shoppintractors
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2003
- Messages
- 1,219
- Location
- Southeast, Michigan
- Tractor
- Shoppin', Formerly Ford 1220, 7106 FEL, 60
<font color="blue"> Placing the CK30 between the DX29/DX33 seems valid</font>
I agree.
<font color="blue"> provided we consider the loader work would not require digging. Breakout force is more of an issue when digging than lifting and I would strongly favor the tractor with higher breakout force on the loader, </font>
Agreed, the New Holland has a better breakout force spec. I'm not sure were on the same page as far as what the breakout force accomplishes. From a previous thread and a credible poster, I pulled this information.....
<font color="purple"> "Breakout force is NOT I repeat NOT how much you can roll back at the pivot pins. It has nothing to do with roll back. It is the amount of force/weight it is capable of moving from ground level, measured at the pivot pins. The lift cylinders are the only ones being used." </font>
If I'm deciphering this statement correctly it has more to do with lifting than digging.
<font color="blue"> But I also look at size and weight and say that just for the sake of having it, there is no advantage. You can always ballast up a tractor for stability but you can't lighten a heavy one when you want to be softer on the ground. </font>
weight = traction in my mind. <font color="blue"> You can always ballast up..... </font> For me personally, the less lugging of weights on and off the tractor the better.
<font color="blue"> So what good is it to have the theoretical power to lift a house with the 3pt if the rest of the tractor won't cooperate? </font>
My point exactly. Overall length (including the 3 point) of the CK30 - 122." Over length of the DX29/33 - 106.2". I have to believe the additional length of the CK30 is going to reduce the teeter/totter effect of a heavy load on the three point.
<font color="blue"> Physical size is one of those "trade off" type issues, as size increases then the ability to maneuver tends to decrease. </font>
I agree with you Bob, each individual purchaser needs to priotize the uses of the tractor and go from there.
<font color="blue">I simply conteded, and still do, that the DX33 and the L3130 outclass the CK30.</font>
As discussed earlier the L3130 doesn't really belong in a apples to apples comparison with the CK30. However the CK30 can be compared to the DX29/33, each having their pros and cons.
I know of one dealer in southern Illinois......Metropolis to be exact(home of Superman and the Daily Planet /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif). Who carries Kioti and New Holland. I think we need some side by side, put the buckets in the side of a hill, demonstrations. Ya have any upcoming events that will take you down that way?
Don
I agree.
<font color="blue"> provided we consider the loader work would not require digging. Breakout force is more of an issue when digging than lifting and I would strongly favor the tractor with higher breakout force on the loader, </font>
Agreed, the New Holland has a better breakout force spec. I'm not sure were on the same page as far as what the breakout force accomplishes. From a previous thread and a credible poster, I pulled this information.....
<font color="purple"> "Breakout force is NOT I repeat NOT how much you can roll back at the pivot pins. It has nothing to do with roll back. It is the amount of force/weight it is capable of moving from ground level, measured at the pivot pins. The lift cylinders are the only ones being used." </font>
If I'm deciphering this statement correctly it has more to do with lifting than digging.
<font color="blue"> But I also look at size and weight and say that just for the sake of having it, there is no advantage. You can always ballast up a tractor for stability but you can't lighten a heavy one when you want to be softer on the ground. </font>
weight = traction in my mind. <font color="blue"> You can always ballast up..... </font> For me personally, the less lugging of weights on and off the tractor the better.
<font color="blue"> So what good is it to have the theoretical power to lift a house with the 3pt if the rest of the tractor won't cooperate? </font>
My point exactly. Overall length (including the 3 point) of the CK30 - 122." Over length of the DX29/33 - 106.2". I have to believe the additional length of the CK30 is going to reduce the teeter/totter effect of a heavy load on the three point.
<font color="blue"> Physical size is one of those "trade off" type issues, as size increases then the ability to maneuver tends to decrease. </font>
I agree with you Bob, each individual purchaser needs to priotize the uses of the tractor and go from there.
<font color="blue">I simply conteded, and still do, that the DX33 and the L3130 outclass the CK30.</font>
As discussed earlier the L3130 doesn't really belong in a apples to apples comparison with the CK30. However the CK30 can be compared to the DX29/33, each having their pros and cons.
I know of one dealer in southern Illinois......Metropolis to be exact(home of Superman and the Daily Planet /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif). Who carries Kioti and New Holland. I think we need some side by side, put the buckets in the side of a hill, demonstrations. Ya have any upcoming events that will take you down that way?
Don
I"ve been following this thread closely. Your statement -></font><font color="blue" class="small">( I think we need some side by side, put the buckets in the side of a hill, demonstrations. Ya have any up coming events that will take you down that way? )</font> Man I could not agree more. We often discuss and compare these tractors based on specs provided by the manufacturer. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that any of the companys are bold outright liars... but wouldn't it be great to have a magazine, or online resource like Edmunds that actually tested these things and gave us reviews and actual tested comparisons. Both you and Bob explain and compare the stated facts well - I just think it would add to the discussion to have comparative testing done. I recall reading that several years ago auto manufacturers were dramatically overstating HP figures to "one up" the competition. Heck, I recall a few tests where the auto company had understated the HP for insurance purposes. I tend to think there might be some exaggeration or bending of figures in the tractor specs as well.
Bob_Skurka
Super Member
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2003
- Messages
- 7,615
Don, the only problem with you & me debating all this is that it really is providing very little to the original poster in terms of useful information right now!
As for the breakout force, the way you posted it is the way I understand it. Bucket curl may be a component, but when the bucket is down and full of a heavy load, the breakout force is based on how much force can you exert to get the bucket moving up, essentially to break it free of the pile. And that is exactly why I place so much emphasis on breakout force. You can dig into a pile, but it doesn't mean you can get the bucket back out with your load. Productivity is measured by how much you can move and how quickly you can move that quantity. If you can't get the load to lift out of the pile, your productivity falls off pretty quick. Again, the NH/Farmall loaders are dynamite for this. The LA402 I use has a toothbar and digs better than the 12LA I use, but overall the smaller tractor with 12LA moves loads faster as long as I am not digging, and if I added a toothbar to the 12LA it would slightly better all the way around.
Regarding wheelbase or L.O.A. and the 3pt lifting capacity. You are correct. I don't think I ever argued that point directly. But I still contend that for the vast majority of users, it is absolutely a non-issue to say that the 3pt is superior because it can lift a bit more, because really only a very small % of users will ever get close to the capacity of the 3pt. And while the rocking for to aft will be reduced with a longer tractor, in real terms I doubt that most users will see any difference when using a mower deck, snow blower or similar implement that is generally considered heavy, but still is probably only about 1/2 to 2/3rds the weight that a 3pt is capable of lifting.
Regarding the weight issue again, I agree that adding weights to a light tractor can be a bit of a pain, but for most landscaping type uses, I think a lighter tractor has an advantage on turf. For pulling stumps, I'd go for the heavier machine. So again, I will say that weight for the sake of weight is pointless; matching the machine to a specific set of jobs probably is a better thing to do.
So based on capabilities, I think you & I have to agree that the Kubota L3130 is the most capable of the original 3 tractors mentioned by the poster.
Of the remaining two, the DX33 and the CK30, I still would say that the DX33 is more of a tractor than the CK30, I suspect you would say exactly the opposite.
I think the combination of the DX33 & the 114 Loader, as an overall package simply overwhelm the added weight advantage (if it is even an advantage) of the CK30, as well as the slightly increased 3pt capacity. We each have our own reasons for why we would pick the DX33 or the CK30 as the better machine. . . but the reality is I am right and you are wrong /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
As for the breakout force, the way you posted it is the way I understand it. Bucket curl may be a component, but when the bucket is down and full of a heavy load, the breakout force is based on how much force can you exert to get the bucket moving up, essentially to break it free of the pile. And that is exactly why I place so much emphasis on breakout force. You can dig into a pile, but it doesn't mean you can get the bucket back out with your load. Productivity is measured by how much you can move and how quickly you can move that quantity. If you can't get the load to lift out of the pile, your productivity falls off pretty quick. Again, the NH/Farmall loaders are dynamite for this. The LA402 I use has a toothbar and digs better than the 12LA I use, but overall the smaller tractor with 12LA moves loads faster as long as I am not digging, and if I added a toothbar to the 12LA it would slightly better all the way around.
Regarding wheelbase or L.O.A. and the 3pt lifting capacity. You are correct. I don't think I ever argued that point directly. But I still contend that for the vast majority of users, it is absolutely a non-issue to say that the 3pt is superior because it can lift a bit more, because really only a very small % of users will ever get close to the capacity of the 3pt. And while the rocking for to aft will be reduced with a longer tractor, in real terms I doubt that most users will see any difference when using a mower deck, snow blower or similar implement that is generally considered heavy, but still is probably only about 1/2 to 2/3rds the weight that a 3pt is capable of lifting.
Regarding the weight issue again, I agree that adding weights to a light tractor can be a bit of a pain, but for most landscaping type uses, I think a lighter tractor has an advantage on turf. For pulling stumps, I'd go for the heavier machine. So again, I will say that weight for the sake of weight is pointless; matching the machine to a specific set of jobs probably is a better thing to do.
So based on capabilities, I think you & I have to agree that the Kubota L3130 is the most capable of the original 3 tractors mentioned by the poster.
Of the remaining two, the DX33 and the CK30, I still would say that the DX33 is more of a tractor than the CK30, I suspect you would say exactly the opposite.
I think the combination of the DX33 & the 114 Loader, as an overall package simply overwhelm the added weight advantage (if it is even an advantage) of the CK30, as well as the slightly increased 3pt capacity. We each have our own reasons for why we would pick the DX33 or the CK30 as the better machine. . . but the reality is I am right and you are wrong /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif