Getting started in hay making... Basic set-up

[ProjectKing]

Hello,

I'm interested in getting started in square bale production. Small square bales around 50 lbs.

Currently I have a Kubota L3830 with loader. Also have a 1953 Ford Golden Jubilee.

Basically I need advice on picking good quality used equipment. Cost for this project is a big factor. I want best quality as well. So over the last 50 years which balers, cutting bars, etc were the best.

I will need a mower. Should it be a sickle or disc type? What brand is best?

I will need a rake... I'm familiar with the trail type New Hollands. Any other suggestions?

Baler.... Need one of those too.... I've heard New Holland and John Deere are the best for square balers. Which models are the best?

Bale collector... I really want to automate process of picking up and stacking bales. Anyone using collectors?

Thank you for any advise.

 

[Nissan197]

I will tell you what I have. I have a Massey Ferguson sickle mower, IH bar rake, and an IH square baler. Been using this setup for the last three years and use a Mahindra 3215 (32 H.P.) to operate it all. I have had pretty good luck, granted I only bale 10 acres which is flat. I don't have a kicker so the bales go on the ground and I have to go back and pick them up. It seems every year I have a harder time finding help. Although I have had good luck with my brands I have heard good things about JD and NH. I think parts availability are a lot better for those brands. I am hoping in the next couple of years to locate around a 65 HP cabbed tractor then I can operate a disc mower and a smaller round baler.

 

[D2Cat]

You want square bales. So do you have a reason/purpose for small squares? What type of grass do you have? You selling hay to horse owners? Is this operation for personal use? How many acres you cutting? Are you mechanically inclined?

Your answers would determine my comments.

For example, if you don't have a profitable market for selling square bales, I'd say don't bale them. Get a small round baler. Maintenance, parts and your time for repairs plus handling, storing small square bales makes a hobby become work.

 

[vtlpluyr]

Nissan197 has the perfect set up for that tractor IMHO. I just went through the square baler selection process, I got a John Deere but there are many good ones out there. Any well maintained JD or NH is fine from what I have learned. I also have a neighbour who believes that the Massey 124 is amazing. You will want a small one because you only have like 32 pto hp. There are lots of threads on this forum about small square balers.

There are many used inexpensive sickle bar mowers out there - I used to have a NH451. It worked great and never needed anything other than minor work on the knives. A NH or a JD might be good from a parts perspective - I cannot speak for other brands. Your tractor is a little small for a discbine or a haybine I think, however others on the forum would know better. I would suggest finding an older crimper if you stick to a sickle bar mower. It will add an extra operation causing you to run around your fields one extra time but you won't need a larger tractor and your hay will dry faster.

I personally have a Massey 37 side delivery rake. It has slept outside for the past 30 years because we have no room in sheds (where our 2 newer ones live), that said we have used it many times over the years as a spare. It worked every time flawlessly despite it being treated like scrap metal. From what I have read and have been told, the NH256 side delivery is the gold standard for this kind of rake.

A used automatic Allied stooker with a Briggs motor might be your best bet as a collector. I have seen them for sale all over the place. You would pay about $300 but would no-doubt need a new engine, so add $350 or $400 for a Lifan or something. There are forks that can be fitted to your loader so when its time to pick up your bales you just lift up the stook and and put it on the wagon for somebody placing the load. I must admit that I have never seen one work. The only ones I have seen working were manual so there was a guy standing on the stooker loading the bales by hand behind the baler, then triggering a spring when a stook was complete. I'm sure many others on the forum could talk to the automatic ones better.

Where I am from, the Massey 135 (same size as yours) and the Ford 3000 (slighter more HP than yours) were the standard / common tractors for many beef farms of 200 ac or less until the mid 70's / early 80's. They did everything and people got on just fine, and ran hay equipment similar to what has been described here. You can make a lot of hay this way.

Best of luck - making hay is incredibly fun!

 

[ProjectKing]

I will tell you what I have. I have a Massey Ferguson sickle mower, IH bar rake, and an IH square baler. Been using this setup for the last three years and use a Mahindra 3215 (32 H.P.) to operate it all. I have had pretty good luck, granted I only bale 10 acres which is flat. I don't have a kicker so the bales go on the ground and I have to go back and pick them up. It seems every year I have a harder time finding help. Although I have had good luck with my brands I have heard good things about JD and NH. I think parts availability are a lot better for those brands. I am hoping in the next couple of years to locate around a 65 HP cabbed tractor then I can operate a disc mower and a smaller round baler.

Thanks for the reply! Good to hear someone is using a 30+ hp tractor for baling. What do you do with your bales? Sell them?

 

[ProjectKing]

You want square bales. So do you have a reason/purpose for small squares? What type of grass do you have? You selling hay to horse owners? Is this operation for personal use? How many acres you cutting? Are you mechanically inclined? Your answers would determine my comments. For example, if you don't have a profitable market for selling square bales, I'd say don't bale them. Get a small round baler. Maintenance, parts and your time for repairs plus handling, storing small square bales makes a hobby become work.

Reason for square bales is possibly easier to sell to horse people that are near by. However your thoughts about a small round baler are interesting. Certainly easier to mechanize round bales. Any idea which one offers higher prices in the "real world"?

Hay operation would be 100% sell. I have no use for hay other than to sell. Currently have farm 50 miles away that is leased to dairy farmer... I get portion of hay profit. Locally I would potentially cut and bale 10 acres.

Yes I'm very mechanically inclined.

Storage of square bales is a big issue. I currently do not have much room to store bales. And would prefer to store them in a separate barn due to fire concern. Building a hay shelter would be an expensive undertaking. The small round bale idea is intriguing.

I would also considering buying an older John Deere around 60 hp if baling operation did okay.

 

[ProjectKing]

Nissan197 has the perfect set up for that tractor IMHO. I just went through the square baler selection process, I got a John Deere but there are many good ones out there. Any well maintained JD or NH is fine from what I have learned. I also have a neighbour who believes that the Massey 124 is amazing. You will want a small one because you only have like 32 pto hp. There are lots of threads on this forum about small square balers. There are many used inexpensive sickle bar mowers out there - I used to have a NH451. It worked great and never needed anything other than minor work on the knives. A NH or a JD might be good from a parts perspective - I cannot speak for other brands. Your tractor is a little small for a discbine or a haybine I think, however others on the forum would know better. I would suggest finding an older crimper if you stick to a sickle bar mower. It will add an extra operation causing you to run around your fields one extra time but you won't need a larger tractor and your hay will dry faster. I personally have a Massey 37 side delivery rake. It has slept outside for the past 30 years because we have no room in sheds (where our 2 newer ones live), that said we have used it many times over the years as a spare. It worked every time flawlessly despite it being treated like scrap metal. From what I have read and have been told, the NH256 side delivery is the gold standard for this kind of rake. A used automatic Allied stooker with a Briggs motor might be your best bet as a collector. I have seen them for sale all over the place. You would pay about $300 but would no-doubt need a new engine, so add $350 or $400 for a Lifan or something. There are forks that can be fitted to your loader so when its time to pick up your bales you just lift up the stook and and put it on the wagon for somebody placing the load. I must admit that I have never seen one work. The only ones I have seen working were manual so there was a guy standing on the stooker loading the bales by hand behind the baler, then triggering a spring when a stook was complete. I'm sure many others on the forum could talk to the automatic ones better. Where I am from, the Massey 135 (same size as yours) and the Ford 3000 (slighter more HP than yours) were the standard / common tractors for many beef farms of 200 ac or less until the mid 70's / early 80's. They did everything and people got on just fine, and ran hay equipment similar to what has been described here. You can make a lot of hay this way. Best of luck - making hay is incredibly fun!

Great information. And good point about the smaller equipment in the mid 70's.

What is the crimper you speak of concerning the sickle mower?

 

[powerscol]

Good advice so far. Search my user name and you will find a lot of information and advice. Spend you money on a good baler. I am sold on inline MF 1835 or similar. I'm running a Hesston 4550 with 26.5 PTO HP (less at my altitude) without issue. I upgraded to a drum mower for next year, but had good luck with an IH 1300 sickle mower. I'm using a side deliver rake (Ford 503) with some issue on heavy wind rows and looking to upgrade to a rotary rake. You don't say where you are from, so depending on weather you may need a tedder.

Good luck - get training on how and when to bale - don't need to BBQ your bar. A moisture meter is a must have in my book.

 

[vtlpluyr]

Great information. And good point about the smaller equipment in the mid 70's.

What is the crimper you speak of concerning the sickle mower?

A crimper has rollers like a haybine - it picks up the hay that you mowed and squeezes it between the rollers breaking the stems every few inches. This allows the hay to dry much faster. You may want a tedder also. Old crimpers and tedders are hundreds of dollars each - not great capacity at that price but they will work. You can got to youtube and see all of this stuff working.

If you make your hay properly there is no need to worry about fire. Our barn is from the 1800's and it stored 6000 bales a year for 50 ish years with no problems.

Round baling is another way to go but a lot more investment. To avoid buying a new tractor, and spending crazy money, you could look at a New Idea 4x4 soft core round baler (grey in colour from the early 80's), very high quality in terms of build. It was by no means a high capacity machine. My cousins had a small tractor and bought some sort of extra gear (or reducer) or something that allowed it to work for them. Also New Holland made a chain baler, an 848 model number, there are many around in the used market. They build up pressure on the bale using air bags from semi trucks. If you can find somebody who knows them well enough to judge the apron chain they are a great beginner's round baler. They can also make silage which opens up other possibilities if somebody around you custom wraps (or you could buy silage bags)... My fear however is that your tractor may be able to run the 848 but it lacks the mass required to slow it down and stop it on hills and stuff. I suggest sticking to small square bales if at all possible - if there are horses nearby there are usually customers - check out Craig's List or Kijiji for your area to see what they sell for. My father used to say that really good hay always sells regardless of market, or the economy...

 

[TractorGuy]

I don't know anything about haying but to add to the discussion a local large animal vet told me that most of the colic cases they see in horses are animals being fed with round bales. They recommended only using square bales for horses. I did not go into the reasoning behind it. Just repeating what I was told about round versus square.

 

[roadhunter]

Good advice so far. Don't make small bales unless you have horse yuppies or hobby farms to sell them to. Most real farmers and ranchers do not use many small squares anymore.

My advice woudl be to go work for someone who bales hay for a living one summer. This sounds more like you have a tractor and thought it would be neat to use it to make hay. By the time you figure what it costs to buy and keep all that equipment running as well as move it from property to property it's' like not going to make much money and more likely lose money. They guys who make money at it around here have thousands of acres they hay and they use big equipment.

How much land do you have lined up to work on?

 

[Farmer495]

Put up thousands of square bales each summer for years, 80 to 120 acres. All of it for feeding our cattle

Majority of it that time with one 42 PTO HP tractor or smaller and 1970's/1980's equipment.

MF 41 6' sickle bar
Kuhn GF22N tedder
NH 256 rake
MF #9 baler

All of the above will run easy on 30 PTO HP.

Only do 90 acres now, upgraded to round bales and disc cutter. Still do about 2k idiot cubes a year.

I'd get a disc mower if you can find a good one cheap, you can run a 4 disc mower ok. For rounds, an 8420 CIH / MF 1734 / Hesston 530 (all same machine) required 30 PTO HP and make a "less than 4x4 bale" so that might appeal to folks that don't want large rolls and don't want to handle squares

 

[Lawnman TX]

I don't know anything about haying but to add to the discussion a local large animal vet told me that most of the colic cases they see in horses are animals being fed with round bales. They recommended only using square bales for horses. I did not go into the reasoning behind it. Just repeating what I was told about round versus square.

My horses don't know anything about square bales . All the hay they have gotten in the last 20 years was round.

 

[powerscol]

Then they are not getting a square meal................................................waite.....................................waite :cool2:




Could not help it....sorry

As a side note MF now makes a very efficient small round baler that is rated at 30hp which means it will run with less hp. I thing it is their 1734 model.

But I did have to laugh as I sell to horse people. I know the habit's they have. They want GREEN, even though bailing with lots of color means high moisture content and mold (can be deadly to horses). I try to bale dry - 8% to 10% so there is no issue with mold (no higher than 14%) . I also bale light bales - no heavier than 50 lbs. The ladies love that. Most horse folks want square so they can feed flakes. Neighbor gets the small rounds and has a table she rolls them out on to cut her feeding size. To each their own as long as it is good hay.

 

[RedNeckRacin]

Horse people are idiots when it comes to hay. They are exceptionally picky because they"know" hay. Why in the world they wont switch to mechanized handling i will never know other than some can't handle round bales. They are fussy and show no loyalty when they get a "deal". We had 40 head at one point and had to make 6k squares a year and 400 round bales to feed them all. If you are betting on kids helping you collect it, good luck. We fired all the help after a terrible year of let downs and excuses along with poor work ethic. Ended up getting a bale accumulator and hydraulic grapple and never looked back.

IMO the biggest problems with hay are keeping the equipment running, fighting the weather, having the time and knowledge of when the hay is ready(NOT when you are ready),having an efficient way of collecting the hay, and storage. If you can overcome all of that, you have it licked. Do not over look the storage. Hay that gets rained on is junk.

Boy do I sound bitter about making hay....lol.

 

[Creamer]

In my opinion IH sickle bar mowers are the best because they do not have a pitman stick and have a very high sickle speed - close to 2000 strokes/min for a model 1100/1300. I currently have a an NH 455 which is not a bad mower either but it does not cut as clean at 1750 strokes/min. Parts are readily available for either. Your tractor will easily handle a 9' sickle bar.

I am also a fan of the bale stooker versus a accumulator because the bales do not lay flat on the ground and you can pick them up with a loader with just tines or I use a toolbar with four points on the 3 pt. I am only familiar with the AgriTec stooker which did not have a motor, just an automatic trip when the sixth bale came into it.

Always been a fan of NH balers and there are lots around everywhere. Any rake will do the job but the NH 5 bar were very good.

 

[Nissan197]

I sell them to horse owners. There are not many square bales in my area anymore.

 

[CDennyRun]

Horse people are idiots when it comes to hay. They are exceptionally picky because they"know" hay. Why in the world they wont switch to mechanized handling i will never know other than some can't handle round bales. They are fussy and show no loyalty when they get a "deal". We had 40 head at one point and had to make 6k squares a year and 400 round bales to feed them all. If you are betting on kids helping you collect it, good luck. We fired all the help after a terrible year of let downs and excuses along with poor work ethic. Ended up getting a bale accumulator and hydraulic grapple and never looked back.

IMO the biggest problems with hay are keeping the equipment running, fighting the weather, having the time and knowledge of when the hay is ready(NOT when you are ready),having an efficient way of collecting the hay, and storage. If you can overcome all of that, you have it licked. Do not over look the storage. Hay that gets rained on is junk.

Boy do I sound bitter about making hay....lol.

As a horse person, I agree that most horse people are WAY too picky. Definitely more picky than their horses! Green like the green on a dollar bill is good in my opinion if it's fresh. A lot of that depends on the types of grasses in the bale. We have fed our horses two year old hay that was pretty dry, and course, and they seemed to love it! The biggest thing we look for is mold, and knowing the grass species.

But yes, most horse people are too arrogant and waste a lot of money.. and probably drive hay farmers crazy. :confused2:

Chris

 

[leeave96]

We got started with a MF 50 diesel, 34-38 PTO hp and later added a JD 5055d 51ish PTO hp tractor. Bought and spruced up a MF 32 sickle mower which is a pitman type mower - but works great. Downside to a sickle mower is no conditioning of the hay and so it takes longer to dry out. Bought a 7 ft Hesston haybine this winter to mow and condition the hay going forward. We have a NH 2 basket tedder and a JD 3 pt rake. For baling, we have a New Holland 68 baler and did a refurb on it. Not a hard job, but lots of stuck/rusted bolts and knuckle busting. Bales great now. For added reliability, we just added a JD 348 baler. We sell to horse customers so having a baler down for a day can make the difference between horse or mulch hay. Conditioner and tedder also help shorten drying time between our frequent summer rains.

Here are a few videos:

http://youtu.be/Hj7ziy8NTU0

http://youtu.be/Skqq9bdeiUA

I would recommend a haybine, definitely a tedder and most any New Holland or John Deere baler provided they are not projects.

Good luck,
Bill

 

[ProjectKing]

Wow thank you all for the input and information. Outstanding help!! (0: