GM forced to close 4 truck plants

[tlbuser]

My wife is a union teacher, and despite what you might think, her teachers union is relatively weak compared to the likes of the UAW. Think of it, my wife with 2 master's degrees and given the important job of educating kids makes less than

To keep things fair, I don't think teachers are a good comp either. On a corporate type pay scale, "most" of them have better salaries and benefits than some other professions with comparable education. Especially when you try to compare the "board" members salaries. Our local school superintendent has a higher salary than the President of the U.S.

As a rule, should they be paid more, probably not. Should the schools be allowed to reinstitute disciplinary measures, absolutely.

 

[Z-Michigan]

I blame the big 3 for that, but who knows what size gun was held to their heads.

Much bigger than you might think. It doesn't get reported in the news or talked about hardly at all, but there was a lot more violence with the unions than you might think. Auto dealers in metro Detroit STILL don't open Saturday (for the most part) because of violence against the ones who tried to 20 or 30 years ago - windows destroyed, cars damaged, threats, etc. Separately, a good friend's dad worked at GM for a long time as a maintenance supervisor - not quite either white or blue collar - and he got death threats many times just for trying to get people to do their jobs (note, the people he supervised were skilled trades and probably making at least $40-50/hr in cash, plus benefits). He had a CCW back at a time when it was discretionary issue and very hard to get, precisely because of this.

I got a chuckle out of your teacher's union comment. That may be how it is in PA, but in Michigan the teacher's union, which doesn't have union in its name, is actually more powerful than the UAW, if you can believe that.

 

[Builder]

To keep things fair, I don't think teachers are a good comp either. On a corporate type pay scale, "most" of them have better salaries and benefits than some other professions with comparable education. Especially when you try to compare the "board" members salaries. Our local school superintendent has a higher salary than the President of the U.S.

As a rule, should they be paid more, probably not. Should the schools be allowed to reinstitute disciplinary measures, absolutely.

School superintendents are not members of the teacher's union.

 

[DEERSLAYER]

I can't believe people are downing the hourly workers! What about the worthless executives who are making 1,000's per hour! That is whats wrong with the companies!

 

[jcmseven]

Deerslayer,

Having read through the thread, I do not feel hourly workers have been downed. Living in NC, and not in the heart of auto manufacturing country, I know very little about these unions. What I do know is that the domestic auto makers are currently crippled by buyouts, long term health and care insurance and other entitlements that they cannot shake to employees, many of whom no longer work to produce anything. When foreign makers can come in and succeed on our soil, and our companies cannot--this is a problem to me. It does not seem to me too challenging to see why they are now in such straits, and it will only get worse. I personally do not think that the domestic makers will survive (any of them) without substantial government assistance (read more taxes) long term. The top brass of these companies make a lot of money, but their salaries are small in comparison to the amount spent of benefits/perks and insurance for the workers. Perhaps going to "universal" healthcare would help some, but then we will simply bankrupt the country, rather than the auto makers. The numbers there do not add up either--but yet we still think about doing it. Sorry, got to go dig some more holes to put my money in---back later.

John M

 

[Z-Michigan]

I can't believe people are downing the hourly workers! What about the worthless executives who are making 1,000's per hour! That is whats wrong with the companies!

I think that's pot calling the kettle black. I'm not defending the excessive CEO salaries - how any CEO can be worth more than $1-2M/year is beyond me, and many get far more - but the fact that some CEOs are overpaid doesn't mean line workers should also be overpaid. I hope that someday soon shareholders will start refusing the insane CEO pay packages that have existed for the last 10-20 years.

 

[chh]

I think that's pot calling the kettle black. I'm not defending the excessive CEO salaries - how any CEO can be worth more than $1-2M/year is beyond me, and many get far more - but the fact that some CEOs are overpaid doesn't mean line workers should also be overpaid. I hope that someday soon shareholders will start refusing the insane CEO pay packages that have existed for the last 10-20 years.

I'll agree with that one too. The unions will finally kill the domestic auto industry at the rate they are going. The employees deserve good wages, but come on. The last report I read on GM they are spending more each year on retiree's health care than they are for steel. It is no wonder the competion is killing them. After all they can come in a pay very good wages for the area's in which they build plants and be $$ ahead of any of the Big 3 average wage.

 

[gemini5362]

I hope all of the people that are so anti union does not have buisnesses that depend on the general public. In case some of you have forgotten those fat cat union employees usually own homes which were built by people in the construction trade. They drive newer cars which helps people in the automotive industry. They take vacations which helps people in those industries. When you fat cat union people are out of work and replaced by 10.00 an hour employees there will not be anyone left to spend money because people who make 10.00 an hour dont have spare money to spend they are too busy trying to just stay alive. If every employee in every car maufacturer in the world were replaced by 10.00 an hour employees with no benefits the price of cars would not go down one little bit the difference would be sent to stock owners in the form of dividends. Consider american airlines a couple of years ago they were headed towards bankruptcy the union employees took major concessions some craft employees took a 12.00 an hour pay cut just to keep the airline solvent and flying. After they agreed to the pay cut and signed the new contract the paper the next week published the story about managment worried about managers leaving promised every manager in the airlines a 100 per cent bonus if they would stay 1 year and not quit. All the craft employees took a huge pay cut to keep their job and management took a 100 per cent bonus to keep theirs. Consider southwest airline. Southwest is the most heavily unionized airline in the buisness. Suprise suprise they are also the most profitable. When All the other airlines are talking about going bankrupt Southwest is making a profit and doing very well. They dont complain about union employees they try to work with their union employees and manage their resources effecively.


Builder I have to disagree with you. The teachers union is probably the most powerful union in the United States today. I would agree that perhaps their salaries are not the greatist in the United States. ( And I wont totally agree with that) They have benefits that make up for it a lot. In arkansas state employees (that would include teachers) do not have to any income tax on their retirement earnings when they retire. They have very good benefits, A teachers salary is based in arkansas on 160 days of employment. Teachers along with police officers can bid on HUD repossed homes and get the for 1/2 of the bid price ( There are some very nice homes that have hud financing. And finally as sad as it is to say If a person has a masters degree in history and another masters in english and another masters in art. If that person does not want to be a teacher there are not many other fields where all that education can be employed. Also have you ever seen a teacher fired. It is a very very hard process.

 

[gemini5362]

+1 here.

The union brothers killed the golden goose in my home town. I have no problem with anyone trying to make a living. But, unskilled labor can't expect to be paid the same as someone who has invested years of their life and tens of thousands of dollars to learn their profession. But, what do I know. I'm just a greedy corporate fat cat as the comrads like to refer to people like me

I understand your sentiments but not sure I can agree with them. I have a lot of years invested in education of different types. I am not sure that I would be willing to take a job in the waste water industry no matter what the pay.

 

[gemini5362]

The $70/hr probably includes benefit costs. But, still, it's an incredibly, amazingly high pay rate regardless. Both of my parents have college degrees, my mom a Ph.D., and neither of them comes close to $70/hr with their full-time, professional jobs. I have lived most of my life in Michigan and I still find the concept of high school dropouts making >$100k/year doing factory work just bizarre.

Recent story in Detroit News said that the Big 3 and their suppliers are having no problems whatsoever finding people to take jobs at the new, drastically lowered pay scale starting at $14/hr.

If your parents are not making as much money as someone on the assembly lines maybe they should go and work on an assembly line and take the increase in pay. Tell them if they do that they should join the union so that they can keep that high sallary and not be forced to work for 10.00 an hour