GM forced to close 4 truck plants

[gemini5362]

Well put Builder! Couldn't agree more.

I have never been part of a union nor do I ever want to, but I have butted heads with a few while visiting/working at some union plants. I always seem to get at least one grievance filed against me for some foolish reason ever time.

America is full of hard working people that are making quality products and a good living for a honest wage.

AS a person who spends a LOT of time writing up and doing various levels of those grievances I bet they are filed against you for all kinds of foolish reasons like, having you there violated a contract stipulation. When you are talking about foolish reasons remember contracts are negotiated by both parties. For One party to get something they want they have to give up something of equal value that the other parties wants. The only excpetion to that is interest arbitration where an arbitrator makes both parties give up something they want and give them part of what they asked for.

You dont see the unions advocating hiring undocumented illegal alien workers for a less than livable rate of pay. That is done by corporate management and solely for the purpose of increasing profits.

 

[gemini5362]

Much bigger than you might think. It doesn't get reported in the news or talked about hardly at all, but there was a lot more violence with the unions than you might think. Auto dealers in metro Detroit STILL don't open Saturday (for the most part) because of violence against the ones who tried to 20 or 30 years ago - windows destroyed, cars damaged, threats, etc. Separately, a good friend's dad worked at GM for a long time as a maintenance supervisor - not quite either white or blue collar - and he got death threats many times just for trying to get people to do their jobs (note, the people he supervised were skilled trades and probably making at least $40-50/hr in cash, plus benefits). He had a CCW back at a time when it was discretionary issue and very hard to get, precisely because of this.

I got a chuckle out of your teacher's union comment. That may be how it is in PA, but in Michigan the teacher's union, which doesn't have union in its name, is actually more powerful than the UAW, if you can believe that.

40 to 50 per hour cash ? I am not sure I could agree with that. At union headquarters because of the way we have to ask for pay raises we compare our salaries to other salaries across the nation. I wished that people on those assembly lines make that kind of money because i would love to be able to make anything close to that. Could you furnish some empirical proof of those numbers along with the job descriptions of the people that get paid that. I could forward it to the national union offices for my union and maybe we could do better than a 2 per cent pay raise next time.

Oh and speaking of pay raises this year we negotiated a2.5 per cent pay raise. The senior management person for us was given a 39 per cent pay raise. How is that for a fair ratio.

 

[Nissan197]

I'll agree with that one too. The unions will finally kill the domestic auto industry at the rate they are going. The employees deserve good wages, but come on. The last report I read on GM they are spending more each year on retiree's health care than they are for steel. It is no wonder the competion is killing them. After all they can come in a pay very good wages for the area's in which they build plants and be $$ ahead of any of the Big 3 average wage.

Everything seems to be going in the wrong direction these days. My FIL retired from GM after 30+ years. He worked a lot of overtime and was payed decent. Layed off quite a bit every year also. Said it was very boring work, but it raised his five kids and he still has health insurance. He is pretty worried about the health insurance now, because they are talking about doing away with it. My father retired from AT&T after 30+ years. He also was lucky and still has health insurance that is paid by them. I am going on 13 years with a government job and will not have health insurance when I decide to retire. I don't see health insurance coverage for many once they retire, unless of course they pay for it themselves (will have to work just to pay for it).

I am neutral on the UAW pay. I have known several people employed by Ford and GM. Everytime I talk with them they are unsure if they will be working the following week. Sure they still get paid a percentage, but all the rumors that go with closing the plant down for good would get to me. I like having job security (sure don't think criminals will ever become extinct )

 

[390GT]

I know for a fact that UAW skilled trade workers do not get $40-50 an hour plus bennys (I'm second generation myself). Also, most if not all foreign auto manufactures pay nearly the same wages that are payed by the Detroit Three to keep the union out. High paying manufacturing jobs help support other jobs and industries in the community. As to the comment that if workers are payed less the company would pass the savings on to the consumer: yea right, not in my life time.

 

[Z-Michigan]

I was told the $40-50/hr number by two people at GM, one the maintenance supervisor I already mentioned, another a GM employee whose regular job was flying a plane for GM, but was skilled trades before that and did skilled trades work whenever he was off flight status due to a cold or whatever. No, I do not have pay receipts that I can copy and post here, but I don't doubt either of the people who told me that. These numbers were told to me in the late 1990's and maybe skilled trades pay has gone down since then, but that's what I was told.

 

[Builder]

If your parents are not making as much money as someone on the assembly lines maybe they should go and work on an assembly line and take the increase in pay. Tell them if they do that they should join the union so that they can keep that high sallary and not be forced to work for 10.00 an hour

Isn't that the whole point? When our country has one worker making more to put a trunk lid on a car than someone who invests a 100K in an education to educate others, haven't we screwed up our priorities?

Nobody's suggesting that we pay the "10.00 per hour", but we are suggesting something that's not going to bankrupt the very company they work for or entitle them to more money than someone who's spent money on 6-8 years of college education makes, either.

I mean, just because something's not right with our society doesn't mean we should just ignore it.

 

[Builder]

I am neutral on the UAW pay. I have known several people employed by Ford and GM. Everytime I talk with them they are unsure if they will be working the following week. Sure they still get paid a percentage, but all the rumors that go with closing the plant down for good would get to me. I like having job security (sure don't think criminals will ever become extinct )

Maybe it's because they don't know if they can afford to pay the excessive salaries & benefits their employees make?

If you read the headlines today, you'll notice a lot of them focus on the problems the big 3 are having with paying salaries & benefits to employees who no longer work for them or their families.

BTW: I think the executive salaries are ridiculous, too! Both sides are eating the company from both ends and pretty soon there'll be nothing left.

 

[john_bud]

Any people wonder why companies move operations overseas? Hmm lets see. China unskilled labor is $670 a month, 6 days a week 10 hour shifts + 1 meal paid per day worked + a bed in the company dormitory. People are lined up around the block to get those jobs.

I worked for a high tech operation that started a factory in Singapore. That factory started up and in 6 months was 10% points higher in yield and 50% shorter in cycle time than the equivalent factory's here in the USA. Why? It wasn't the equipment as they started with the exact same models and were only 1 year newer. It was the people. The operators did what ever it took to make the product correctly. Mostly it was that they followed directions exactly and stopped when there were issues and corrected them. Customer returns to the Singapore factory were also 1/10th that of the USA factories. And that was greatly improved over time!

So let's see, the USA workers would only do "their jobs" and work often stopped or was slowed due to that. They also didn't perform "their jobs" as well resulting in lower yield and higher costs. They also didn't perform "their jobs" as quickly resulting in higher cycle times and higher costs. They also did "their jobs" in such a way that they product had lower quality resulting in returns that reduced customer confidence in the company and products. And in exchange for this stellar performance the USA workers, with lower educational backgrounds, working shorter hours, with more and longer breaks were payed 5x the amount of money. Guess which factories were losing money and which were profitable?

While it may sound like it, I'm not anti-union, but the unions have to wake up to the reality that the competition isn't a non-union shop down the block. It's the low tax rate country providing highly skilled, dedicated workers in a factory that is government supplemented. They had best stop the "management vs union" conflict and start to work together as a team or there will be no management, no union and no jobs.


Hey, how'd I get up on this soap box? Oops!@! Best jump down and get back to work.

jb

 

[CumminsLuke]

Any people wonder why companies move operations overseas? Hmm lets see. China unskilled labor is $670 a month, 6 days a week 10 hour shifts + 1 meal paid per day worked + a bed in the company dormitory. People are lined up around the block to get those jobs.

I worked for a high tech operation that started a factory in Singapore. That factory started up and in 6 months was 10% points higher in yield and 50% shorter in cycle time than the equivalent factory's here in the USA. Why? It wasn't the equipment as they started with the exact same models and were only 1 year newer. It was the people. The operators did what ever it took to make the product correctly. Mostly it was that they followed directions exactly and stopped when there were issues and corrected them. Customer returns to the Singapore factory were also 1/10th that of the USA factories. And that was greatly improved over time!

So let's see, the USA workers would only do "their jobs" and work often stopped or was slowed due to that. They also didn't perform "their jobs" as well resulting in lower yield and higher costs. They also didn't perform "their jobs" as quickly resulting in higher cycle times and higher costs. They also did "their jobs" in such a way that they product had lower quality resulting in returns that reduced customer confidence in the company and products. And in exchange for this stellar performance the USA workers, with lower educational backgrounds, working shorter hours, with more and longer breaks were payed 5x the amount of money. Guess which factories were losing money and which were profitable?

While it may sound like it, I'm not anti-union, but the unions have to wake up to the reality that the competition isn't a non-union shop down the block. It's the low tax rate country providing highly skilled, dedicated workers in a factory that is government supplemented. They had best stop the "management vs union" conflict and start to work together as a team or there will be no management, no union and no jobs.


Hey, how'd I get up on this soap box? Oops!@! Best jump down and get back to work.

jb

Here here! Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[al b]

Here here! Couldn't have said it better myself.

That's the way I see it too.