GM forced to close 4 truck plants

Z-Michigan · Mar 5, 2008

I would just add that unions range widely in what they offer. One of my cousins is a union electrician. I'm sure that union electricians cost more and make more than non-union. However, the electricians' union also operates a training program that takes people from knowing nothing to being competent, licensed electricians in an apprentice program, and AFAIK also does a decent job regulating the quality of their work. To me that kind of union provides benefits, and while it creates costs (higher prices for the work) those costs may be justified. OTOH some unions do nothing but demand more money, without offering anything in return. I see no value in those. If the UAW and their like would wake up and say "in exchange for X dollars and job guarantees, we will make sure that our members show up on time, sober, and do quality work, and if they don't, we won't fight you tooth and nail to get rid of them." My impression is that UAW locals are diverging more and some are being more realistic while others are still back in the days of communism by union.

Builder · Mar 5, 2008

Z-Michigan said:
I would just add that unions range widely in what they offer. One of my cousins is a union electrician. I'm sure that union electricians cost more and make more than non-union. However, the electricians' union also operates a training program that takes people from knowing nothing to being competent, licensed electricians in an apprentice program, and AFAIK also does a decent job regulating the quality of their work. To me that kind of union provides benefits, and while it creates costs (higher prices for the work) those costs may be justified. OTOH some unions do nothing but demand more money, without offering anything in return. I see no value in those. If the UAW and their like would wake up and say "in exchange for X dollars and job guarantees, we will make sure that our members show up on time, sober, and do quality work, and if they don't, we won't fight you tooth and nail to get rid of them." My impression is that UAW locals are diverging more and some are being more realistic while others are still back in the days of communism by union.

That's the problem. I think the UAW has basically savaged the big 3 into mere shells of what they used to be. Pretty obvious the UAW went too far in getting their clientele way more than they deserve or the big 3 could afford to pay them.

It's pretty obvious as to why their Japanese counterparts are not having the same problems.....they don't have the UAW to deal with.

I'm NOT anti union. I'm against anyone who's only out for themselves no matter what the damage they do to their employer, customer or community.

Diamondpilot · Mar 5, 2008

Me and Builder go round and round when it comes to truck brands, modifications, ect . But we have one thing in common, if he does not do a good job as a carpenter/contractor he will go broke. If I do a poor job flying I go broke or worse yet die. My other business's are really just a hobby and a few extra bucks but I take this same approach at them.

That is what make us and ones like us so passionate about things. We work for our reputation and lively hood. The problem with many of the people in this world, my family members included, is they feel that they are owed something. They sit back and use all the energy they can to try to figure out how to get out of working for a living. Many of us on this forum don't have this option. We don't eat if we don't work hard and do a good job.

Sorry to use you as a example Builder, but you and I seem to see eye to eye on quite a few things and bump head on just as many but its all in good fun. At the end of the day we are very much alike, just like our Beer, Trucks, and Women a little different.

Chris

zzvyb6 · Mar 5, 2008

Lets not forget that (as I see it at least), most of you are only interested in buying tractors (this is TractorByNet, isn't it?) that are the lowest cost, (cheapest ?) and of the quality for which you believe competition provides.

Yet, the cost of quality is added up after the raw mateials and the labor is added to the pot. THEN quality is added (better raw material ingredients, better paint & prep, better chrome on cylinders, thicker bucket lips, stronger wheels, better piston rings and block liners, better fuel delivery, you get the point I sure hope.

Except that you will pay a company in India, Japan, China, Korea, or even Ubangi if necessary to get it, while your neighbor who gets a USA wage pays the price for your decision. The check you write goes into the National bank of India, Japan, China, Korea, etc instead of Detroit, Kansas City, Indianna. That's called balance of payments (which is a very negative number these days). The money that went overseas went to loans for people THERE to buy houses, clothes, cars and .... quality in their plants & products.

Oh sure, we get to send some steaks over there, but the Japs hold this up once in a while complaining about meat quality just to have a way to stop the imports. I once traveled 'There' and the guy I was with was returning to Toyota City< not with anything he brought here, but with 200 lbs of NY Strip steaks. He could buy a new car with the income from them, he said !!!

So, just watch all segments of our economy give up their market a sliver at a time until it goes completely away. Sort of like what cancer does to you. No one notices until Dr X. says you have 3 months to live.

The home mortgage business used to be able to use the money from domestic manufacturing to finance house purchases (Remember GMAC, Ford Credit, etc.) Well that's ALL GONE now, Hello.

So go buy your offshore tractors and mowers and chain saws from overseas. Keep in mind its where the company pays its taxes that benefits America. Oh sure GM builds cars in Canada and Mexico, etc. Don't you know that Canada and Mexico both have a law that requires you to build a vehicle there in order to sell ANY vehicles there ? That's how crap works. (BTW: as of yesterday, you can no longer bring any new vehicle into Mexico). HOWZAT???

Now I have money saved since I first started working, My house is paid off, and I won't pay taxes anymore if they want to prosecute I won't live long enough to go to jail. But you younger ones ought to recognize that you are now stuck selling off the resources of this country because there's nothing left of value to anyone here who has money to buy it with (except the scrap dealers).

Oh and one more thing just to clarify: The Managers and Directors and Board members of the 'Big' companies you all like to accuse of being overpaid, are BONUS level workers. They get a nominal salary, but all their money comes from the company profits. So, no profit, no check. Does that awaken any of you know-it-alls? If you aren't at one of these positions, hearsay about what people make is from a wild imagination, not facts. All the millions most get are in company stock, not cash. Worthless stock doesn't put dinner on anybody's table.

There I feel better. You drive a non-domestic tax payin truck to my place to buy hay or farm products, and your kid's little pony is gonna die of hunger.

Diamondpilot · Mar 5, 2008

Just curious what engine your JD has in it? I believe its a Yanmar! And thanks for letting us pay your way since you will no longer be paying your taxes.

Chris

CumminsLuke · Mar 5, 2008

I agree with a lot of what he said, but all that aside, his whole tractor is a japanese made Yanmar painted Deere green. Call it what you want, I call it splitting hairs.

Builder · Mar 5, 2008

zzvyb6,

Yet, the cost of quality is added up after the raw mateials and the labor is added to the pot. THEN quality is added (better raw material ingredients, better paint & prep, better chrome on cylinders, thicker bucket lips, stronger wheels, better piston rings and block liners, better fuel delivery, you get the point I sure hope.

My American made Case backhoe has an awful paint job on the hood & engine side panels.

Check my signature. None of my equipment is made outside the USA, so please don't throw me under the bus

I think you took your arguement to the wrong topic. The topic started about GM closing production because AAM stopped production. The topic morphed to overpaid union workers. I think most of us who have participated are not anti-union, but if they eventually destroy the company they've sworn to work for to their best ability, who have they served except themselves?

bjcsc · Mar 5, 2008

I pretty much see it as Builder put it in his last post. zzvyb6, I don't quite understand the point(s) of your post, but I promise you whatever computer you used to compose it was not made in the USA, nor are many of the products most of use anymore. I see your post as an illustration of the problems that result when unions kill the companies they are trying to work with and completely inline with the sentiment of this thread so far. Hopefully you were kidding about not paying taxes. If you have ever known anyone who has been in trouble with the IRS, you wouldn't even kid about it. They don't put you in jail, the money in your bank accounts will just disappear one day (and it won't be applied to your balance) and the house you've worked so hard to pay off will be next. They don't play around...

gordon21 · Mar 5, 2008

Many of you are old enough to remember Eastern airlines. I believe the union officials name was Charlie Bryan. In my opinion, he was essentially the force that killed the entire airline. His strike backfired and many thousands of families lost their income/cars/homes due to his greed. An entire neighborhood in Miami (Miami Lakes) took the brunt of the strike and demise of Eastern back in the late 80's. Hundreds of Eastern families lived there within a couple miles of the airport. I can sense this same scenario coming around again. If GM has a 5 month supply of completed trucks, then that gives them 5 months to line up a new supplier for axles.

There was a time in our history when unions were needed. That was many decades ago before civil rights laws, OSHA, etc. Many industries benefited from unions such as coal mines. Mines are probably a hundred times safer now than 60 years ago. But, for the most part, the role of unions has passed. There are plenty of existing labor and safety laws to "protect" workers. The main thing being protected by unions now are the jobs of sub standard workers.