GM forced to close 4 truck plants

[tlbuser]

It is interesting that I did not notice any replies to my post about southwestern airlines.

While we are talking about over all labor costs I am sure some of the high figures being bandied about on here involve health insurance. I dont see any one blaming the doctors and the hospitals for those costs.
THE UNION EMPLOYEE MAKES A LIVING WAGE SO THAT HE CAN AFFORD TO PURCHASE ITEMS IN THE UNITED STATES ALLOWING OTHER EMPLOYEES AND BUISNESSES TO STAY IN BUISNESS.

1) Southwest Airlines - Love flying with them. Too bad they don't go everywhere I want to. Their management team learned some hard lessons (and improved on) from previous employers like Eastern.

2) Doctors are not driving the cost of healthcare as much as the insurance industry is. The insurance industry decides what is "allowable and payable".

3) Define "livable wage". What basis are you using to justify those numbers?

 

[gordon21]

Gemini: I should have made myself clearer. By sub standard I meant lack of productivity, working slow, walking slow, taking 30 minutes to go to the parts dept to get a part when it could have taken 2 minutes, coming back from lunch 15 minutes late every day, hangovers every Monday, etc

I did not mean to insinuate that the end results of their labor was sub standard when they finally did do some work. Your Silverado is probably a well assembled fine piece of machinery. BUT, how many inspectors did it have to go through before being allowed out of the assembly plant? AND, how long did it take to assemble compared to a foreign built truck?

We have all known that worker who does great work with almost 100 % perfection when he is on his game. The problem is getting him to do that at least 80% of the time. Running wide open for 3-5 good hours a day is not the same as doing it for 8-10 hours.


I fully expected a lot more comments about Eastern by now. I know we have a lot of pilots and union people here on TBN.

Discussing unions is almost like religion or politics. You will never win an argument and you will never change the other persons mind. At least they don't cause wars like the other two.

 

[Diamondpilot]

Ok, here is my story as a pilot. I graduated from Indiana State University with a Bachelor Of Science in Aero Space Technology. I made good grades and ended up with a 3.5 gpa. I made all A's and B's in my major but slacked a little in the other bull_____ classes. I was in the top of my graduating class and like by many of the professors and in return was asked to stay for a year after graduation and teach.

At the end of that year I interviewed with United Airlines and was offered a job flying Beech 1900D's out of Chicago Ohare. The starting salary was under $20,000 a year. Give me a break. That was working 17 days a month, tons of nights in hotels, and 14 hour days. I took a job as a charter pilot in Anderson Indiana flying Cessna 310's, Piper Navajo's, Mitsubishi MU2's, Cessna Grand Caravan's, and Pilatus PC12. I did this for 2 1/2 years and averaged $45,000 a year. I flew about 20 days a month but only did 1 or 2 overnights and was off most weekends. This was a much better road for me and was actually able to afford a car, home, and eat.

I eventually moved on to corporate flying jobs and have since worked for 3 companies flying Pilatus PC12, Piper Cheyenne, Cessna Citation, Mitsubishi Diamond Jet, and Rockwell Sabre 65. I make a good living but I am not getting rich. My schedule varies per the demand of the company. I have flown as little as 12 days in a month and as much as 25 days. All in all its a great job but there is no security.

Now for the guys and gals I graduated with. Many have move on to the big iron form Boeing and Air Bus. They are taking pay cuts, working long tough hours and treated poorly on the average. One good friend got on with Major Airline out of College. He is union and has been a pilot for them going on 10 years. During that time he has been out of work for over 3 years due to strikes at the airline and the aircraft manufacturer. He works the standard 17 day month. The problem is his base is JFK New York and he lives in Indiana. He has to travel back and forth to work on his own time 4-5 times each month to go to work. He is not getting rich either. I would guess he is making $75,000 a year. Would any of you guys be away from home 20 plus days a month for that salary. Yes, he could live in New York but he does not want to raise a family in NY.

Chris

 

[bjcsc]

Even though this is a somewhat heated discussion, I would ask that the ad hominem arguments be discontinued and we limit the discussion to the topics. We're all friends here, we can agree or disagree, but let's not get personal less this thread be locked and our discussion (which has been good) end.

No matter how you see it, union advocate or not, a US worker commanding an average of $70/hr compared to the world average for the same job of $35/hr can not expect the company they work for to effectively compete in the world market place. No matter how many times a union throws a bandaid on the situation, it all comes back to numbers. Issues like insurance companies driving costs (healthcare, unemployment, workers comp, etc.) and such are certainly valid and factor in. I don't blame the unions, but I think they're trying to run a steamship in the modern Navy. Instead of focusing on getting more for the worker, it would be quite an accomplishment if the union leadership would identify the inflated costs of labor, esp. in benefits, and work on a strategy to decrease those costs to the companies. They could work towards a goal of decreasing the gross cost, but increasing the net to the worker, yielding a competitive position in the world market place for the companies the workers represent. No one has more muscle with the insurance companies than the unions. I'd like to see them use it...

 

[asylum575]

Chris, At a salary of $75000, the only way he's going to live "OK" in NYC area is if his wife is also a pilot, too. Cost of living is crazy around here. Even with the housing slump, starter homes in the 30 mile radius of NYC are going for $400K. Add to that property taxes that average $6000 for those "starter homes" and all of the sudden, your in a pickle.
I work for NYC and my wife teaches near home. It's tough. The issue here is , What is a livable wage? Everyone wants a mcmansion. We moved about 2 yrs ago to a bigger home. The home we sold was a 1600 sf cape cod. We felt cramped in there with a three year old and one on the way. That made we think. The previous owners of the smaller home raised 4 kids there, and we were cramped with one.

Life is different now. Simple doesn't fly, no pun intended Diamond pilot.

 

[Builder]

Builder I hate to say this but if it were not for being teachers a lot of teachers with the type of degree and education that they spent big bucks for would be working doing something like teaching kids to say do you want fries with that hamburger. There are just so many jobs (besides teaching) for people with history degrees, english degrees, artists, music degrees , philosophy degrees ( my stepsons major by the way) etc. If you are in some fields no matter how much money you have spent on your education it is a limited employment bracket. I am sure in your buisnes if you have someone come in that is a top of the line framer you are not going to pay him more because he has a masters in history. But if he does not like to teach then he can probably make more money and have more opportunities.

I believe teachers should be well paid not because my wife is one, but because I greatly value the education of our youth. Our number one problem in this country isn't inflation, big goverment, etc. , it's IGNORANCE which is fostered & nutured in the classroom. My wife teaches in one of the top 5 school districts in PA. An award winning school turning out our states most promising kids getting academic scholarships. The individuals charged with the duty of educating our kids should make more than a guy that tightens down the lug nuts. Anyone who disagrees with that does not value education adequately.

You're right, why teach kids (the future of our nation) when you can make more money installing seats in a Buick? Maybe that's why Japan, India and Asian countries' kids are getting better scores than our kids?

Builder I am not trying to single you out but you have a lot of posts on this subject and most of them are not kind to unions. Do YOU hire undocumented illegal hispanic employees. If you dont does it not make you mad when your competition repeatedly underbids you and gets work you want. That is what the posts on here are suggesting needs to happen to union employees they need to make the same wages as foreign workers who live in china or somewhere make so that we can all have cheap cars, tv's etc. I am all for that if we go to paying the same price for a house as it cost us in china. Or if I can hire an airline pilot and plane to take me somewhere for the same price etc etc. THE UNION EMPLOYEE MAKES A LIVING WAGE SO THAT HE CAN AFFORD TO PURCHASE ITEMS IN THE UNITED STATES ALLOWING OTHER EMPLOYEES AND BUISNESSES TO STAY IN BUISNESS.

That last comment in caps sounds like a very socialistic attitude, commrade Gemeni. We can't subsidize union employees pay just so they can keep us poor non-unionized slobs afloat.

I don't hire illegals and I would never suggest that we replace union workers with illegals. All I'm suggesting is that we give our corporations a chance at survival by keeping their union employees wages' at levels that allow them to stay in business.

Why do you think they're leaving in droves for China, Singapore, Mexico, Canada?

Lots of my jobsites have union employees on them. You know that on one job they had a HVAC laborer making $28/hr? He cuts sheet metal with snips and goes out for coffee for the "skilled" guys who make upwards of $45/hr. That's $90,000/yr. Not bad huh? I think it's ridiculous. I stick with non-union shops. They work for 30% less and the work is just as good. They have a more personalized approach to getting business from me and don't go running to the union superintendent whent they have to work in an attic between June & August.

 

[Builder]

No matter how you see it, union advocate or not, a US worker commanding an average of $70/hr compared to the world average for the same job of $35/hr can not expect the company they work for to effectively compete in the world market place. No matter how many times a union throws a bandaid on the situation, it all comes back to numbers. Issues like insurance companies driving costs (healthcare, unemployment, workers comp, etc.) and such are certainly valid and factor in. I don't blame the unions, but I think they're trying to run a steamship in the modern Navy. Instead of focusing on getting more for the worker, it would be quite an accomplishment if the union leadership would identify the inflated costs of labor, esp. in benefits, and work on a strategy to decrease those costs to the companies. They could work towards a goal of decreasing the gross cost, but increasing the net to the worker, yielding a competitive position in the world market place for the companies the workers represent. No one has more muscle with the insurance companies than the unions. I'd like to see them use it...

Thank you. You've been hired to work as my spokesman.

Circling back to the OP's topic, I think the main reason for AAM's troubles points to their union workers who weild too much power and control the direction of the plant rather than the plant's managers & owners.

 

[chh]

Don't worry Builder, the union will be happy when it "protects" the workers out of a job and the new axle supplier for GM is out of Mexico or ???? They did it to my ex-FIL. The officials bragged about saving him from working for less than he was worth at the plant he was at. The company was forced to close it because it couldn't compete with more modern meat packing plants here in the US. He ended up working at a lumber yard as a delivery driver for just over minimum wage and no benefits. Some protection huh?

 

[gemini5362]

I believe teachers should be well paid not because my wife is one, but because I greatly value the education of our youth. Our number one problem in this country isn't inflation, big goverment, etc. , it's IGNORANCE which is fostered & nutured in the classroom. My wife teaches in one of the top 5 school districts in PA. An award winning school turning out our states most promising kids getting academic scholarships. The individuals charged with the duty of educating our kids should make more than a guy that tightens down the lug nuts. Anyone who disagrees with that does not value education adequately.

You're right, why teach kids (the future of our nation) when you can make more money installing seats in a Buick? Maybe that's why Japan, India and Asian countries' kids are getting better scores than our kids?





That last comment in caps sounds like a very socialistic attitude, commrade Gemeni. We can't subsidize union employees pay just so they can keep us poor non-unionized slobs afloat.

I don't hire illegals and I would never suggest that we replace union workers with illegals. All I'm suggesting is that we give our corporations a chance at survival by keeping their union employees wages' at levels that allow them to stay in business.

Why do you think they're leaving in droves for China, Singapore, Mexico, Canada?

Lots of my jobsites have union employees on them. You know that on one job they had a HVAC laborer making $28/hr? He cuts sheet metal with snips and goes out for coffee for the "skilled" guys who make upwards of $45/hr. That's $90,000/yr. Not bad huh? I think it's ridiculous. I stick with non-union shops. They work for 30% less and the work is just as good. They have a more personalized approach to getting business from me and don't go running to the union superintendent whent they have to work in an attic between June & August.

comrade is a pretty insulting term dont you think. Especially to someone of our age group.

So we should pay teachers more and that will increase the quality of education we give our kids. You might be right. I had a special education student and I had to deal with the teaching staff at one of the top rated schools in our state. In my opinion most of the teachers there were worth the pay that they were recieving, or maybe even less.

We seem to be dancing around the same aguements here. The quality of life in a lot of those countries is less than the US and the appropriate pay scale reflects that. If a house cost 1000.00 to buy you can work for a lot less than if the average house costs 200,000 or 300,000. I do believe that you think the skilled HVAC guys are making too much money because they do not have degrees and are union employees. They dont call them skilled trades for nothing. A lot of those workers have years in an apprenticeship program learning those trades and a lot of them learned them in a lot less prestine conditions than a climate controlled classroom.

The comments in caps were because you among others seem to think that we should pay skilled workers just barely above minimum wages and unskilled laborers minimum wages. Is that because you would rather have a wealthy class and a impoverished class so that you can hire the impoverished class of workers and make more profit when you sell to the wealthy class. I have no problems with hiring a union employee to work on my house or my properties or my car whatever. Most times I am going to be sure that I am getting an employee that has been through the proper training to get where he is at. Rather than perhaps getting someone that has not had the proper training and is just winging it. If you are using non union shops for your projects do you change the rates you charge your customers equal to the percentage of price difference between when you pay union employees or do you charge the same when you have to use union employees as when you get to use non union shops. If the latter is true then sounds like you make more profit when you use non union labor.


I find it interesting that you would talk about how bad and overpaid union employees are then talk about how much your wife is underpaid as an union employee.

 

[gemini5362]

1) Southwest Airlines - Love flying with them. Too bad they don't go everywhere I want to. Their management team learned some hard lessons (and improved on) from previous employers like Eastern.

2) Doctors are not driving the cost of healthcare as much as the insurance industry is.The insurance industry decides what is "allowable and payable".

3) Define "livable wage". What basis are you using to justify those numbers?

I will agree to an extent with number 2 insurance companies are a huge part of the problem but I dont believe most doctors I have seen are indigent. Which by the way if fine with me that they make big bucks they have a lot of time and money in their edcuation and they work hard. I love that they can afford to pay that high priced plumber to fix their toilet when it needs it.

Livable wage to me is someone that is making enough money to own their home. drive decent vehicles and have enough money to enjoy life somewhat that varies by local to local. Non liveable wags is when you are using everything you make just to survive and every small emergency puts you right on the edge of not being able to make it without some kind of financial assistance (sometimes government assistance)