grading , compacting ,leveling and soil moisture.

[david43a]

I have a hilly and rocky dry dirt acre.Full of rocks [ most of them the size of footballs ] I tried grading and leveling with the loader and backhoe , it was a dusty dirty job. and the dirt was a pain to dig with the backhoe or the loader with a tooth bar.
So one day I decited to cut down on the dust and soften up the soil I ran a couple of sprinklers all day it made the work site much cooler cut down on the dust and made a big mud bog. about the third day the soil was just right for digging and grading and my tractor did not sink in the mud.does wet soil that I run my tractor over compact well ? I want to level my lot out to eventually build a small barn or garage. Any advice or grading of soil compaction would be apreciated ! Thanks David

 

[Nelson]

HI David,

When I prepaired the site for my garage, I removed the topsoil completely and had some sand for fill then some 3/4 inch crushed gravel (not crushed stone) put down. I ran vehicles and equipment over it for compaction and also put the sprinklers to it. The water soaking through helped settle the gravel and sand. Of course it was wet and soft until it dried. I used a floating concrete slab to build on. If you are building a mud (pole) barn, you may not be as concerned with compaction because the foundation will be your poles and mud sill.

Good luck with your project and be sure to post pictures of your progress.

 

[MarkV]

Hi David,
Sounds to me like you are on the right track. We are on different ends of the country but I also have to wait until after a rain to work some of our clay in the summer. Much of your question depends on your soil and your end use plan. For a pole barn with dirt floor I would not worry too much about compaction. Remove as much rock as you can, get things level and drive on it a bunch to settle. Add gravel if you are looking for a gravel bed in the barn. As Nelson said if you plan on a slab you would most likely be better off putting a crushed stone base down for leveling, compacting and drainage after the slab is installed. As far a compaction goes moisture content is important for proper compaction. An unscientific test is to take a handful of dirt and make a ball. If it powders and falls a part it is to dry. If it deforms and oozes (is that a word) water it is to wet.

Another note on compaction. If you plan on building off of concrete footings you need to dig deep enough to pour the footings on undisturbed ground. In your area there is no or a very shallow frost line but a small tractor is not going to compact loose dirt well enough to pour footing on.

Sounds like you are having fun.

MarkV

 

[Currmudgeon]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( For a pole barn with dirt floor I would not worry too much about compaction. )</font>

Your use of the barn will provide compaction over time. The floor may become uneven, but that's what the box scraper is for.

Compaction is important if you put down a concrete slab. If there are bad soft spots, it will crack badly. But concrete will bridge to some extent, so you can make up for some bad material with a good aggregate base and a thicker slab.

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( As far a compaction goes moisture content is important for proper compaction. An unscientific test is to take a handful of dirt and make a ball. If it powders and falls a part it is to dry. If it deforms and oozes (is that a word) water it is to wet.)</font>

And the scientific test isn't much more complicated. Basically, they fill a mold, ram the earth with a calinrated drop hammer, and weigh the dirt. Then they add a little water, mix up the dirt and repeat. At some point, they get optimum moisture content. You may be able to come close enough with a calibrated eyeball, but sometimes the optimal band is pretty small. Getting the moisure content right, and thereby getting the compaction right, is the most critical part of compaction.

Gravelly soils are generally pretty tolerant. Silty soils and clay soils can be very sensitive to moisture content. Given my druthers, I'd rather keep them drier than optimum, because they go to hell quickly and it's hard to get the water back out. Our contractors spend a lot of money disking wet soil and hoping for sun. Of course, then it rains. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Another note on compaction. If you plan on building off of concrete footings you need to dig deep enough to pour the footings on undisturbed ground. In your area there is no or a very shallow frost line but a small tractor is not going to compact loose dirt well enough to pour footing on.)</font>

I concur. As a minimum, you want to remove the topsoil. It will never compact decently and is unstable because of the organics. I'd probably rent a vibrator plate to do strip footings. One day's rental is all you need. If you're filling, do it in 6-inch lifts and compact each lift.

Compacting the aggregate base under the slab is important. That's the layer that will support the concrete. The compaction stage also lets you get the aggregate base good and even. You want a uniform top surface - as smooth as you can make it. If it has low spots, you're paying for them in concrete. If you have thin spots, you're paying for them in strength. If you don't have some compaction in the base, you'll have footprints and tire tracks.

 

[david43a]

Thanks for the replys. I have also removed some catcus and some weeds and when it rains I get a lot of erosion. I was thinking of spreading a bunch of chippings over the dirt to keep down the dust weeds and erosion, do you think the chippings will wash out when it rains.? When I moved into my home I bought two dump trucks loads of gravel it worked well for drainage dust control and to some extent weed control but the cost of the two loads was $ 400. dollars. Can you think of a cheaper alternative ? It worked well last year when it rained. I am tring to do as much work as I can with my tractor and as little as possible with a wheel barral and shovel and rake. I am looking forward to some more tractor time tomorrow. I have a question about leach fields. I have a septic system and leach field. the leach field is on the more gently sloped hill. I want to cut more into the hill to get a more level yard. I was thinking of replacing some of the leach field on the hill side and installing it on the flat part of my yard so I could dig further back into the hill. I want to do this with out a permit. I want to apply for a permit after my lot is as level as possible. To build a garage or barn that could be converted into a home in the future. Does this sound like a reasionable idea ? thanks David.

 

[Soundguy]

Great answers for these guys. And not presented so hi-brow that they can't use the info
I take it, I've met a fellow CE? I've seen lots of EE's and ME's and such.. but don't believe I've seen another CE.

Soundguy

 

[MarkV]

David, I would be real careful about messing with that leach field. The authorities get real fussy about septic systems and can be very unfriendly if you are caught with out a permit. In some areas you have to be licensed to do any septic work even though a septic system is not that complicated. Now if I understood correctly your leach field is partly on the up slope side of your hill? I wouldn't know your local rules but here when a field is laid the lines all have to be level. If not all the liquids would run to the low point and not leach uniformly out of the field. Is it possible that the field is just buried deeper in that area?

With erosion I always keep a couple of things in mind. The water is going to have to go some place so contour the land to make it go where you want. Most any material, including stone, is going to wash if you get enough rain. This is why stone needs to be sized for the project. In a ditch that gets heavy flows of water you will often see Rip Rap. (large stone laid in piles across the ditch at several different points) On a properly contoured drive you can use smaller stone because the water is distributed over greater area. If you are trying to control a drive, use the tractor to contour the grade so the water runs to the sides and put in ditches to move the water away. Stone is going to make your best cover material for anything you drive on regularly. If it is your open areas that are causing problem plant a ground cover. Grass or what ever is used in your area will slow the flow of water down so you get less erosion. Sounds like more tractor projects in your future.

MarkV

 

[Currmudgeon]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I take it, I've met a fellow CE? )</font>

Yep. I'm one of those oxymorons, a Civil engineer. Unfortunately, we're not paid any more than the rude ones.

 

[Currmudgeon]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I have also removed some catcus and some weeds and when it rains I get a lot of erosion. I was thinking of spreading a bunch of chippings over the dirt to keep down the dust weeds and erosion, do you think the chippings will wash out when it rains.? )</font>

It depends on a lot of things. The steeper the slope, the bigger the rocks need to be to keep from washing away. If they're too big, the dirt can was out from under them. Murphy rules.

The best way to fight erosion is with vegetation. Since you're talking aboput cactus, I'd guess that establishing vegetation will be a bear. The best resource, here, is your state or county erosion control agency. Often it's under the State EPA or whatever it's called in your state. They often have a manual, that can be downloaded, that describes their Best Management Practices.

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I was thinking of replacing some of the leach field on the hill side and installing it on the flat part of my yard so I could dig further back into the hill. I want to do this with out a permit. I want to apply for a permit after my lot is as level as possible.)</font>

That's risky business. You might find your project Red Tagged and they could possibly rule your house unfit for habitation, if they want to get nasty enough.

If you do this, you absolutely want to do it to follow the code. If you do that, there is less chance they will make you rip out your work. Find the agency that regulates septic tanks. Often it's the County Health Dept. Get a copy of their ordinance and their Design Manual if they have one. Follow it as if it were Holy Scripture. While the basics are the same everywhere, the details differ from county to county, so more detailed advice wouldn't help you much.

There's no rocket science in septic tank work, but the devil is in the details. Build more drain field than you need. You won't be penalized for too much of a good thing.

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( To build a garage or barn that could be converted into a home in the future. )</font>

Again, get the local codes. If the building is built to the stricter of what you need for a barn or a house, you should be OK. No sense in doing the work twice.

I've found that, as an amateur, the inspectors will generally work with you provided you don't mess with them. But there's only two ways to do things, their way and their way. Do it their way. It may be stupid, but it's their way.

 

[rambler]

As the others say, it can get real expensive doing everything twice if you go without permits. Be careful there. They have the power to say no, and you will need to spend the money doing it their way - no matter how good a job (and how much money you spent) doing it your way.... Fully understand what they will want & inspect for. Some places, septic systems are just totally off limits, & you would just be in trouble.

--->Paul

 

[david43a]

I am in a Civil Engineer Squadron in the Air Force. I am not a degreed Civil Engineer though , just a Plumber. Thanks for the warnings on the septic system. I have cut into the bank and some water is seeping out I believe where my leech field is I have a penciled drawing of the leach field that was on file with the County. looking at the bottom of my lot from the top it slopes down and to the right. I hope the contractor leveled my leach field ? I have owned the home for two years and I have had no problems with the septic system. I mentioned that I would like to build a garage/ barn that I could convert into a home hopefully in the future. My neighbor across form me has two acres and he has been trying to split it into four 1/2 acre lots so he can build three more homes. If he gets permission to do this He will have to connect to the sewer. He would have to bring the sewer up two hundred yards up a private paved road. If he is able to do this it would make it less expensive for me to connect to the sewer. [ of course I would have to be annexed to the city first. Than try and get permission to connect to the sewer] . I am in the county but my neighbors below me are in the city. If I build the garge I will get it permitted and over build it. I am doing the grading and leveling a little at a time. I hope I do not attract attention form the city or county. I want to do it myself .
thanks for the input David.

 

[Soundguy]

I would hope your contractor did.. and I would hope the county inspector inspected it too...

Small world... I'm finally seeing CE's and related fields here...

Soundguy

 

[Currmudgeon]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( He would have to bring the sewer up two hundred yards up a private paved road. If he is able to do this it would make it less expensive for me to connect to the sewer. [ of course I would have to be annexed to the city first. Than try and get permission to connect to the sewer] )</font>

A public sewer is always better than a septic tank, IMO. But paying for it may not be.

Often, when a developer puts in a sewer on a public road to get to their development, they have a recapture agreement with the municipality. If you want to connect to that sewer, you get assessed a pro-rata share of the cost of the original sewer. That way, the developer can recapture some of his expense. The terms differ with each individual sewer, so you'll want to know the terms before you sign up.

Usually, there is no problem in connecting, because they want your bucks. Usually, the connection, between the public sewer and your property line, must be made by a licensed sewer contractor. Then a licensed plumber can take it from your property line to your house. Those may or may not be the same contractor. Different construction codes apply for sewers and for plumbing.

 

[david43a]

I am a Licened Plumbing Contractor. I don't know much about septic systems and I don't know if I could legally work on them. Also I don't know if I could dig up the street to tie into the sewer Sometimes you can post a lagre bond to work in the street and some times they require a gereral or engineering contractor. Once the sewer is stubbed into my property and I have payed the appropiate fees. I could take it form there and run it up to my home. I don't know what the fees would be , I should ask the city for current prices. If I could not connect to the sewer from our private road there is the possibly of getting an easement form one of the four neighbors below me who's property butts up to my fence ?
I think I have months of tractor work left and than I will work on the best location for the garge/barn ? Anyways I am enjoying myself playing with my tractor and attachments. Thanks for the advice David