Grand L3X30 Questions ???

Neophyte · Aug 17, 2003

I drove a Kubota L3830 and NH TC35D today at a dealer who carried both. They did not have a L3130 or L3430 in stock but the L3830 is similar. I was not really considering Kubota until I drove it. The engine was noticeably more quiet than the TC35D and the HST was both less noisy and smoother. It also seemed like the loader hydraulics were smoother on the Kubota. I did not like the placement of the controls or the treadle pedal on the same side as the brakes. I also did not like the long hood (poor visibility) and all the orange metal (I'm a plastic fan and I don't like the orange color). Despite these small complaints, I think the Grand L3X30 series is a nice machine! I think I could live with some of these things with that sort of performance. For me, the L3130/L3430 are definitely in the running with the NH TC33D/TC35D and JD 4310/4410.

With that said, I have a few questions about them.

1. It says the mid-PTO is semi-independent. What does this mean?
2. Can you have the mid-PTO engaged without having to engage the rear-PTO? That is, can you have mid alone, rear alone or both together? This is one of the things I truly hate about the JD machines.
3. Can you brake steer with these machines using the cruise control or does the cruise control disengage by pressing the left or right brake? Someone was telling me you need to hit both brakes to disengage the cruise. If this was the case, then it seems like you could use cruise to brake steer. I still wish they would have put the brakes on the left side like the TC35D.
4. What is the cost for the 3 remotes?
5. Is the MMM raise/lower controlled by its own remote or by the 3PH control?
6. How quickly can you attach/detach the MMM on the L3X33 series?

I appreciate the help. Thank You.

rjsmit1 · Aug 17, 2003

I don't know the answer to your questions about the MMM and Mid PTO, but I can tell you that I have not needed to brake steer my L4330 HST with 4 wheel drive in the 30 hours I have had it. Your uses and needs may be different, but the tractor will turn on a dime without brake steering.

Neophyte · Aug 17, 2003

rjsmit1,

Keep in mind that I live in Maine. When clearing snow with the bucket and the front wheels are off the ground, brake steering is a necessity. Also, on hard packed snow or icey ground, sometimes brake steering is your only option. I have used it on a Case 580K for these reasons, so I would think I might use it on a compact as well ... but I could be wrong.

glennmac · Aug 17, 2003

You certainly are researching a lot of ground. You probably could have gotten answers to all of these questions from your test drive and the dealer.

The retail price for the remotes is readily available from the dealer and from carverequipment's website. It is about $1400. No one knows what kind of discount, if any, a particular dealer will give.

You should be able to brake steer with the cruise lever and by hitting one split brake. Easily testable. Unless one likes to brake steer just for the sake of brake steering, it probably is not done much with hst tractors, because hst is so simple and quick to to a 3pt turn.

The mmm is connected to the 3ph, that is how it is lifted, and hence it will always go up with the 3ph. Like the 3ph, it goes down by gravity. Meaning, it probably can be pinned so it stays up when the 3ph goes down. You will probably be limited to one particular size of turf tire (only) with a mmm on a 3x30. Dealer will know. If the mmm is like the one on the 3x10 series, it is probably a hugely expensive bear that is hard to install and remove, and which will have no independent market value except for use on 3x30 Kubota's.

The pto's are separately runnable. Whether you can run both at the same time, I don't know. Dealer should, and it also is easily testable by trying to engage both. I cant think of a scenario where I would want to run both at the same time, although there is probably some combination of implements that may be amenable to such.

_RaT_ · Aug 17, 2003

You can brake independently on the HST but effectively it needs to be done in cruise control where it is easy. When plowing snow, I doubt you would use cruise control. The treadle pedal is something that folks at first thought they would not like but later found it not only great, but better in function, I concour. If differential braking and plastic are needed, I think you should be looking at the JD 4310 or larger or the NH, the Kubota is not going to fill your special needs very well. I agree that the engine on the Kubota from my test drive are clearly the quietest and smoothest, that was my prime criteria. I never use differential braking therefore it is not an issue. The color and whether it's metal or plastic never entered the qualifier criteria. Rat...

grandad · Aug 17, 2003

You touch on the one situation where differential braking has value for me... working in low traction situations. I've found no other reason for a brake turn since the hydro is so natural and quick (my experience only... please reach your own conclusions).

Down where we live, it's usually mud, not snow/ice, but the result is the same. That said, there have only been maybe 3-4 times in 175 hours of operation where the mud had me using differential braking.

One thing puzzles me though. Why are your front wheels off the ground using the FEL? With an MFWD tractor, you are losing lots of traction that way.

Neophyte · Aug 17, 2003

Glennmac,

Yes, I have been researching a lot of ground. In the end, I will probably have spent as much time on a new tractor as you have with your R1W tires.

I asked the dealer many of these questions. However, he was a new salesman and did not have many answers. Thanks for mentioning Carver Equipment. I checked their site and they had other useful pricing information as well.

I forgot to test this feature on the L3830 since their was a thunderstorm headed our way and the salesman was in a hurry. I don't expect to brake steer much but I was still curious if it could be done.

I have never heard about the tire limitation with the MMM. To the best of my knowledge, the other brands and models all can accept a MMM with R1s, R3s or R4s. I will have to ask them about this specifically since I want the R4 tires.

I was not so much concerned about running them at the same time. I was more concerned about running them independently of each other. The only times I could see a need to run them together would be a MMM and Grass Collection System or a Front Blower and Sander. I don't foresee either of these applications in my future.

Neophyte · Aug 17, 2003

_RaT_,

You are correct, I would rather not use cruise control for plowing snow. It was more a question out of curiosity and to see if it was possible to brake steer at all.

I don't mind the treadle pedal. I just did not like the fact that they placed the brakes on the same side as it. In some ways, I like the treadle pedal better. For instance, I think it would be nice for a 3PH Snow Blower where you are turned in the seat and traveling in reverse. It would make the reverse pedal easily accesible to your right or even left foot.

Differential braking and plastic are not huge considerations for me. Certainly not large enough to discount this line of machines. These were simply minor pet peeves and somewhat said in jest.

Orange people sure are touchy! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Neophyte · Aug 17, 2003

Grandad,

Same here, low traction situations are about the only time I would want to use brake steering and it would be rare.

The front wheels like to come off the ground sometimes when you float the bucket to clear snow.

Like I said, the brake steer question was one out of curiosity more than necessity.

Neophyte · Aug 17, 2003

Glennmac,

By the way, as you know, the L3X30 series does not come standard with a mid-PTO. Therefore, none of the Grand L machines on the dealer lot had a mid-PTO that I could play with and the new guy certainly did not know.

Neophyte · Aug 17, 2003

Thank you for the answers to #3, #4 and #5.

Anyone out there with a L3X30 series and MMM that can answer the other questions?

1. It says the mid-PTO is semi-independent. What does this mean?
2. Can you have the mid-PTO engaged without having to engage the rear-PTO? That is, can you have mid alone, rear alone or both together? This is one of my big pet peeves about the JD machines.
6. From your experience, how quickly can you attach/detach the MMM on the L3X33 series?

I appreciate any help. Thank you.

Henro · Aug 17, 2003

Neophyte,

I don't have an L series, but I can tell you that having the directional pedal and brakes on the same side makes brake steering VERY difficult.

There are times when the front wheels will be off the ground when scraping dirt off the surface in front of the tractor. I needed to turn when doing this and the only way I could do it was by using the cruise control and braking independently. It worked but was a half-baked way to do it.

USUALLY brake steering is not an issue for me. If it were...well, as much as I like my tractor...I might buy something else that had the directional pedal and brakes on opposite sides.

Kelvin · Aug 17, 2003

Differential Braking & Cruise Control

I'm pretty sure that the Kubota Grand L's cruise control is like that on the B2910, where the speed control lever can be used in lieu of the foot pedal to control forward movement (you can start, stop, change speed, etc using the cruise control lever). The only two differences between tractor operation using the HST foot levers and the cruise control lever (that I can think of) are (1) the cruise control lever maintains its position when the operator removes their control over the mechanism, and (2) the cruise control lever can't control movement in reverse.

I know that my B2910's cruise control lever will disengage when the brakes are applied (brake pedals locked together). I have never tested this with a single brake pedal.

Conclusion:

(1) If the cruise control DOES NOT release with the application of a single brake pedal, then you should be able to perform your tasks.

(2) If the cruise control DOES release with the application of a single brake pedal, you should be still able to easily control the tractor's forward movements using the cruise control lever (which is on the left hand side for Grand L series, and on the right hand side for B2910). Under this mode of operation you'll be left with your right hand (Grand L series) to either operate the FEL joystick or use the steering wheel. This may or may not be a problem, but since you're having to use differential braking then the steering wheel probably wouldn't offer much usefulness anyways.

Hope this input doesn't confuse things too much...
Kelvin

Kelvin · Aug 17, 2003

( 1. It says the mid-PTO is semi-independent. What does this mean? )

From the Grand L Sales brochure:

Live-independent PTO: "The new Live-independent PTO clutch is hydraulically actuated, which allows both the rear and mid-PTOs to be independently engaged/disengaged while the tractor is in motion. To complete the package, a Neutral/Auto Shut-off system and protective flip-up shields are included for a full upgrade in total PTO safety and productivity."

Hopefully that explanation will answer any questions as to whether the tractor's design will allow you to accomplish the task you have in mind.

As to the meaning of "semi-independent", my guess is that the term implies that the two PTOs are DEPENDENT in the sense that they rely upon the same power source (drive shaft?), but are INDEPENDENT in the sense that they can be engaged/disengaged totally indepent of each other.

Kelvin

Kelvin · Aug 17, 2003

( I have never heard about the tire limitation with the MMM. To the best of my knowledge, the other brands and models all can accept a MMM with R1s, R3s or R4s. I will have to ask them about this specifically since I want the R4 tires. )

FWIW, I was at a dealer back in June asking about the mid-mower on the Grand L's, and they informed me that the Grand L 3430 mid-mower was compatible with the AG tires ONLY, despite the photo shown in the sales brochure showing a Grand L with turf tires and MMM. This didn't make sense, since it would seem that turf tires would be a highly desired tire choice for MMM use.

The salesman called some head Kubota representative (supposedly the guy actually shown driving the tractor in the sales brochure) to ask about the accuracy of the information in his ordering books. He was informed that that very week Kubota had just approved turf tires for use with the mid-mower.

As of the information I received that day, it appears that R-4s are not compatible with the mid-mower on the Grand Ls.

I have R-4s on my B2910 with 72" MMM.

Kelvin

_RaT_ · Aug 18, 2003

My neighbor bought a Deere 790. I asked how he decided on the model, brand etc just out of curiosity. The color was his reply, I like green. Thats fine and I like the color as well I was not sure if this was some of the criteria you were using. Some folks are very partial to metal or plastic, thus the many threads on metal vs plastic. I really just don't care. Heck if it had the engine and transmission I really wanted it could be pink and plastic with a blue seat. . I hope you didn't think I was being short or overly sensitive, my goal was hopefully just to steer you in the right direction If you really want to use differential braking to it's fullest, the Kubota HST is really not your answer. If your using it to make turns at the end of a row, its a snap. Once set, you can press either pedal all day long and once you hit both, it disengages. I cannot imagine a cruise control operating any easier or smoother then mine. Unfortunately, I just never need it. The pedal design helps to smooth out the bumps tremendously by allowing your foot to "float" and react according to the bumps instantly while not being forced into a jarring position of being forced to do what the bumps try to make it do. Harder to explain then do for sure. With a little practice its a great way to control the tractor.

The loader is very quick. The quickest I've used yet.

The visibility you mention may seem like an issue at first, but believe me, in no time you will wonder how you ever thought that. Getting the bucket level is easy. The sight rod actually works very well for this. Mines marked in to spots for flat with and without the tooth bar.

The mid PTO again is opeated independent of the rear. If you were wanting to use a MMM and run a fertilizer spreader, you could and conversely, if you wanted to shut the mower off and spread fertilizer you could.

You need the turf tires for the MMM, the ags or R4's are to big. The MMM is very well built and the price is way up there as proof.

Lets see, anything else? Well, just ask if you do.

Rat

poco · Aug 18, 2003

the mid PTO has its own lever that has to be engaged first ,then to make it operate you engage the rear PTO lever, I have the standard turf tires ,dealer said they have installed r4's with mmm's but you lose some height in up postion. The MMM looks simple to remove but it does weight 500lbs tells you to turn one of the mower rear wheels to the mount on side to help it to slide out from under tractor, haven't done mine yet I didn't want to miss a day that it didn't rain with the mower off, kinda wet in western Pa this year. One thing about the mower it is super quiet and does a nice job off cutting also I liked the belt setup on it better than the JD.There are lights on dash to let you know mid and rear pto's are engaged

Neophyte · Aug 18, 2003

Thanks for the help guys.

According to Poco, the rear-PTO needs to be running in order to have the mid-PTO running, which means it has the same limitation as the JD 4210/4310/4410. I guess this is what they mean by semi-independent mid-PTO ... the rear-PTO needs to be running.

This limitation has always annoyed me when looking at the JD machines. The situations are probably rare but they can exist where this would be an issue.

* Front Mount Snowblower with Rear Sander - whenever you run the snowblower, you would be spreading sand.
* MMM with Rear Spreader or Rotary Cutter - whenever you run the MMM your spreader or cutter would be running.

I guess the quick way around this would be to disconnect the rear PTO shaft. However, it still seems unneccesary to have the rear-PTO running when you only require the mid-PTO.

If the smaller machines have this independence, why wouldn't they have it on their large machines as well? Perhaps I'm giving this too much significance? With that said, most of the JD owners and dealers I have talked to, have always disliked this "feature".

_RaT_ · Aug 18, 2003

A quick way around it would be to operate a sand spreader off a hydraulic motor. The hook up would be a snap and the control would be great. It would require a differnt valve to operate it more effectively. I see no issue running the rear PTO shaft while using the mid pto other then the control you loose. Too run another set of clutches and a means to disconnect and also run the interconnect wiring for safety would certainly add more baggage and most likely cost and be something that very few folks will ever utilize. I did not purchase the mid pto with mine and doubtful I will ever purchase it down the road. The MMM would probably work quite well, but I use my loader to much and the 72" width would be a bit small. For your situation, I could see where you might utilize the fully independent mid PTO. I thought folks at JD were saying you cannot isolate the mid pto from the rear, in otherwords, when the rear is turning, the mid is turning and vice versa. You might check into that.

Kelvin · Aug 18, 2003

( According to Poco, the rear-PTO needs to be running in order to have the mid-PTO running, which means it has the same limitation as the JD 4210/4310/4410. )

Keeping in mind that I don't have a Grand L Kubota, and Poco does, it seems to me that Poco's description of the PTO operation conflicts with the Grand L sales brochure's description of the PTO operation:

( The new Live-independent PTO clutch is hydraulically actuated, which allows both the rear and mid-PTOs to be independently engaged/disengaged while the tractor is in motion. )

It may be that Poco is right, or the sales brochure is right, or it may that I have totally missed the boat somewhere and there is no conflict between Poco's assesment and the brochure statement.

I can tell you that on my B2910 I can engage either mid or rear PTO, or both, at will. The difference is that my B2910 PTO clutches are not hydraulically operated thus I have to use the clutch to engage/disengage whichever PTO I am using.

Bottom Line: You should probably check the Grand L PTO situation out yourself (live, and in color...).