Grid-tied solar

   / Grid-tied solar #1,051  
I really do enjoy time in the timber frame cabin I built... wood heat keeps it cozy on the coldest of winter nights... with lanterns for light...

One thing I don't miss is having to make a trip into the town library to look up things... the Internet is such a tremendous resource compared to how things were done in the past.
 
   / Grid-tied solar #1,052  
My point earlier was "green" is nothing new, been happening for over fifty years. There doesn't have to be a some big mind change, Americans have always been green. If you think green is something new its you who are late to the thinking. Electric Mobility: Electric Boats on Bavaria'''s Lake Koenigssee - Mobility & Motors - Pictures of the Future - Innovation - Home - Siemens Global Website

Germans mandated electric boats on their alpine lakes 100 years ago to preserve the area. Not a new idea.

HS

I'm glad you are onboard with green concepts. Being that you mention electric boat motors and seeing you have solar power on your house, something like this could be your next green project
 

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   / Grid-tied solar #1,053  
Copied from a FB post, but it is true, and probably appropriate at this point in the discussion.

Checking out at the supermarket recently, the young cashier suggested I should bring my own bags because plastic bags weren't good for the environment. I apologized and explained, we didn't have this green thing back in my earlier days?

The clerk responded, that's our problem today. Your generation did not care enough to save our environment for future generations?

She was right about one thing, our generation didn't have the green thing in our day. So what did we have back then? After some reflection and soul-searching on our day, here's what I remembered we did have?

Back then, we returned milk bottles, pop bottles and beer bottles to the store. The store sent them back to the plant to be washed and sterilized and refilled, so it could use the same bottles repeatedly. So they really were recycled. But we didn't have the green thing back in our day.

We walked up stairs, because we didn't have an escalator in every store and office building. We walked to the grocery store and didn't climb into a 300-horsepower machine every time we had to go two blocks. But she was right. We didn't have the green thing in our day.

Back then, we washed the baby's nappies because we didn't have the throw-away kind. We dried clothes on a line, not in an energy gobbling machine burning up 240 volts wind and solar power really did dry our clothes back in our early days. Kids got hand-me-down clothes from their brothers or sisters, not always brand-new clothing. But that young lady is right. We didn't have the green thing back in our day.

Back then, we had one TV, or radio, in the house not a TV in every room. And the TV had a small screen the size of a handkerchief (remember them?), not a screen the size of Wales. In the kitchen, we blended & stirred by hand because we didn't have electric machines to do everything for us. When we packaged a fragile item to send in the mail, we used wadded up old newspapers to cushion it, not Styrofoam or plastic bubble wrap.

Back then, we didn't fire up an engine and burn petrol just to cut the lawn. We used a push mower that ran on human power. We exercised by working so we didn't need to go to a health club to run on treadmills that operate on electricity. But she's right. We didn't have the green thing back then.

We drank from a water fountain when we were thirsty instead of using a cup or a plastic bottle every time we had a drink of water. We refilled writing pens with ink instead of buying a new pen, and we replaced the razor blades in a razor instead of throwing away the whole razor just because the blade got dull. But we didn't have the green thing back then.

Back then, people took the bus, and kids rode their bikes to school or walked instead of turning their mums into a 24-hour taxi service. We had one electrical outlet in a room, not an entire bank of sockets to power a dozen appliances. And we didn't need a computerized gadget to receive a signal beamed from satellites 2,000 miles out in space in order to find the nearest pizza joint.

But isn't it sad the current generation laments how wasteful we old folks were just because we didn't have the green thing back then?
 
   / Grid-tied solar
  • Thread Starter
#1,054  
Copied from a FB post, but it is true, and probably appropriate at this point in the discussion.

Checking out at the supermarket recently, the young cashier suggested I should bring my own bags because plastic bags weren't good for the environment. I apologized and explained, we didn't have this green thing back in my earlier days?

The clerk responded, that's our problem today. Your generation did not care enough to save our environment for future generations?

<snip>


That's been around for several years. It makes some good points but misses the real problem; the "old green" wasn't a conscious choice being made between viable alternatives, it's just the way things were. As newer technology came along at lower manufacturing costs those same "old green" people generally adopted it without a lot of thought about the long-term consequences of millions or billions of people doing the same. They did so because it took some of the day to day drudgery out their lives.

Being a lazy person at heart, I'm all for reducing or eliminating drudgery. :D Some of that drudgery is self-imposed--like mowing a 2+ acre lawn, or owning things that require our attention and effort that are more in the fun-to-have category than necessities. People in the US tend to live with large environmental footprints because we can afford to, not because we made any judgments on the ultimate wisdom of that choice. An analogy may be that I can afford to eat prime rib everyday but I would probably die early from heart disease if I did.
 
   / Grid-tied solar #1,055  
I am not sure where you grew up, things may have been different there. Growing up in rural Central Texas, we raised our own vegetables and fruit, canned the same, raised rabbits and chickens, used a push mower, swung an axe, used actual shovels to move dirt and were required to walk whenever possible and at times my daily walk to school or the bus stop was about a mile. Most of the time it did not matter what the weather was, we were not getting a ride. We were not wealthy, but not poor either. Both of my parents were ex military, our groceries were cheap, but my parents were also were raised by people who did survive the depression and understood the value of being able to do for yourself. In our case, it was a conscious choice. It was the same for the vast majority of the people in our area. My parents chose the lifestyle and they were not alone, and this was the late 60's and 70's, not the 30's and 40's. Even in the 30's and the 40's a very large percentage of the population resided in the city and could not provide for themselves.

Far too many of the self proclaimed greenies consider it a badge of honor and a way to look down at others instead of a lifestyle choice. Owning a pollution causing Prius does not make someone green, it simply means they do not understand the amount of pollution associated with manufacturing their "green" car, the end does not justify the means. I take my hat off to those who are making their own soap, try and raise as much of their own food as possible, sacrifice most luxuries that many could not do without, cut their own timber for construction and heat, etc etc. Unfortunately it is a lifestyle that the vast majority would never even consider, even if they could figure out how to do it. I also take my hat off to those in this thread who have decided to go solar, yourself included. We did our solar well and panels not to be green, not to do the right thing for others but to do what was right for us and to ensure that no one would have control over our water and electricity. We did not do it to look down on anyone or to try and place ourselves above anyone else. My hope is that the majority of people who go down a similar path chose it for the same reasons.

Even if you don't consider them "green" because they had to live that lifestyle, it does not negate the fact that they were "green" and even back then the majority of our population was not green, they were city dwellers who depended on someone else to provide for them. Nothing has really changed, there are those who can and do and there those who cannot and will not. We are fortunate that the majority of the membership here is rural and is capable of doing for themselves. What we do not know we will ask and find out how to do.

I will gladly take any of that prime rib you do not want, I seem to be immune from the effects of a high fat diet. :D
 
   / Grid-tied solar #1,056  
There is a growing body (see what I did there?) of research suggesting a high fat diet is far better than a low fat one.
 
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   / Grid-tied solar
  • Thread Starter
#1,057  
I'm not looking down on anyone. I'm not going to criticize people who are trying to make green choices to the best of their abilities either. People ought to encourage others to make green choices. That is basically what the Pope is doing. We encourage others to get an education, hold a job, raise their children well; why not encourage them to be environmentally sensitive in how they go about their daily lives? All of those things contribute to a greater good and are necessary underpinnings for a healthy society. We all share in the results and pay for the actions of others and in that sense we all have some skin in the game. We deserve an environmental voice.

Being self-reliant or independent is not equal to being "green"--for lack of a better word. I could be self-reliant and at the same time have my own little environmental disaster developing. In any case, as mentioned, the resources for everyone to live in relative independence on the land do not exist nor would society function even if the resources did exist.

Surely most of us could reduce our environmental footprints by 10%-20% and never feel it. I am trying to make a coherent argument that people do have voluntary choices that can make a difference in what sort of world our descendants will live in. The first step is to define what sort of world is valued--a step hasn't been taken yet. We just drift along toward an undefined future that by all indications will be a much poorer natural world than we live in today.

The natural world of today is not that of pre-Industrial Revolution times or even pre-WWII. The natural world encountered by the colonists in the Americas was not totally natural either. The Native People had already made some transformations. In that sense, defining what is natural is difficult and will be somewhat artificial by necessity. What is different in our times, in my opinion, is the impact of human use has grown to the extent that we are extinguishing elements of nature that support our own well being, and what is being lost is not ever going to be brought back.

I do believe that we could replace Mother Nature with test tubes, chemistry, and few android parts--at least as far as sustaining basic human life is concerned. That is not the future I would chose for my descendants. There is a beauty to this world that is unequaled by any man-made creation. I don't believe we have the moral authority to deny that beauty to following generations and we ought to stop going about as if we do.
 
   / Grid-tied solar #1,058  
Two sides to most equations. Can bemoan storage energy density but perhaps there are better gains to be made on the other side of the equation. Take a look, for example, at average household energy needs in America compared to somewhere like Germany.

Also we seldom do enough modelling of our needs to work out how much and when. Instead many of use have come to expect the Max we will need at any one point to be available on call 24/7.

Germany uses natural gas everything home appliances. Of course the electrical usage looks modest with a gas stove, gas fridge, gas water heater, gas furnace and gas clothes dryer.
Odd how nobody chirps about the use of NG instead of electricity ?
 
   / Grid-tied solar
  • Thread Starter
#1,059  
Germany uses natural gas everything home appliances. Of course the electrical usage looks modest with a gas stove, gas fridge, gas water heater, gas furnace and gas clothes dryer.
Odd how nobody chirps about the use of NG instead of electricity ?

https://yearbook.enerdata.net/natural-gas-consumption-in-the-world.html

Canada (pop. 35M) uses more NG than Germany (pop. 82.5M). None of the three small towns/villages where I lived in Germany had NG. I would imagine it is similar to here in the US, NG is more common in dense population areas.
 
   / Grid-tied solar #1,060  
Germany uses natural gas everything home appliances. Of course the electrical usage looks modest with a gas stove, gas fridge, gas water heater, gas furnace and gas clothes dryer. Odd how nobody chirps about the use of NG instead of electricity ?
NG is how the world will get their electricity. It's clean, very clean, and there is estimates as high as 10,000 years of supply. NG for heat is a no brainier, wish I had it here, electric heat is a big energy waste. HS
 

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