Tractor Sizing GUIDE: Shopping/Sizing A Tractor (Development version)

[Rock Crawler]

Re: GUIDE: Shopping/Sizing A Tractor (development version)

I have an opinion that is essentially completely opposite to Jeff's, and that is okay. I bought a BX, I didn't like it. It was tippy, it was hydraulically weak and it labored in every task I asked if it. Yet, it did it. But I was not willing to accept the limitations.

So I looked for the lightest tractor that would do what I felt I was asking if the BX, and the heaviest that I could see being in my turf. So I did consider the Kubota L and after a great amount of deliberation, I decided to go with the big B frame. The slope stability from a B2650/B3350 with the bigger and wider tires from the B3350SU, 1.5" spacers and fluid fill is so much improved that it defies the base weight variance by far.

Cost is absolutely always a strong consideration.
Space to store/fit is also almost always a very strong motivation in the decision process.
If we all had unlimited clearance, unlimited space and unlimited funds, we would all go buy big and bad products for all uses in life. But... Such is not reality.

I find that my move from a BX to a big B to be a massive step up in all aspects of use.

If this document were taken as gospel by me, I would have bought a MX! It wouldn't fit in my garage, I wouldn't have the ability to afford all of the implements to fit up to it and I would be financially stressed while trying to pay for it. Instead, I found a machine that has amazed me (and others) with it's ability and it has satisfied my desire to correct the weaknesses that I felt in my SCUT.

I have no doubt that Jeff has only the very best intentions, but he is a sampling of one and has only the life and equipment experiences of one, and to boot he lives in flat lands and in a sandy area of the Earth.

His motivation and input is admirable, but yet as I see it, is fundamentally flawed. Anytime advice or opinion is given that directly contradicts his experience and opinion, he refutes, discounts and/or ignores it. Rather than opening up the open source document to opposing views and experiences, he doubles back to his own coveted views.

My opinion is to forget a lot of this regional and narrow minded internet advice and look at your own unique situation. Look at the lessons learned by those who may live and work in conditions, on tasks and in geographically similar terrain as you and weigh the lessons learned, tempered with your financial ability and other details that only you may know and go from there.

The bottom line: I don't believe that there is a single document that can be applied carte blanche across the infinite array of situations.

I applaud Jeff in this attempt, and I truly feel that he means only well. But if he brought his experience to my area of the country he would be doing a whole lot of fast learning, as would I if I traveled to Florida to experience what he does. We can not speak for others. We can only share the things that we personally have first hand experience with.

 

[rngrrymd]

Wow, lot's of reading to get through this thread. Having just spent months researching tractors and visiting about 20 dealers trying to hunt down models and taking units out for test drives I have this to say -

Jeff, you are right to emphasize the importance of weight when shopping for a tractor but Piston is more correct in the steps of determining which tractor to buy -

1. Determine your tasks you need the tractor for
2. Determine what attachments/implements you need to accomplish those tasks
3. Determine which tractors are capable of using the attachments/implements you need now and possibly in the future
4. Weight. Determine what weight is needed to use those attachments/implements safely
5. Determine which tractors meeting requirements 1-4 are in your price range and go test drive them. All of them if you can.
6. Shop for prices at as many dealers as you can - you can counter your local dealer's price offer with a competitive offer from a competing dealer to save $$$ on your purchase


It is obvious from this thread that you are trying to drill the importance of weight into the discussion of a "newbie" looking for tractor advice which is great. However, I think several outstanding suggestions like Piston's have been rebuffed from being incorporated into your document to keep weight front and foremost. The response was to start his own thread which to me is not "tbn group contribution" towards the document - you have held stubbornly to weight as the 2nd most important factor when it really is not 2nd on a proper list. Yes, weight is of huge importance but you are dis-servicing the newbie looking for advice by omitting these extra steps/info the newbie needs to consider.

Let's say I'm a newbie. I want to do all these tasks - some now, maybe some later. Using your method, I somehow determine 2100 lbs is enough weight and I see a John Deere 3032e. It's shiny, it's green, it's a great price and I buy it. I decide later I want to dig holes in the ground and need a sub-frame mounted backhoe - OOPS! Can't get in on this model!! Didn't ask the saleman if I could get it later because I didn't need it right away but didn't check to see if the tractor was capable. The salesman didn't care to ask because he/she is getting a sale and just wants to make that commission. I have now spent $20k I have been saving up for the last however many years on the wrong tractor and now I'm screwed because of the loss I'll take selling my now used tractor because I only looked at weight. I should have bought a 2R series which has more weight which is better but more importantly is capable of upgrading down the road with that subframe backhoe which is why attachments/implements and the tractor's capability of using those implements come before determining weight needed to do tasks safely. Once you have a list of tractors with 1-3 figured out you determine weight needed and eliminate the models that don't have enough weight to narrow your list to tractors to test drive.

Not trying to be mean but that's my 2 cents.

I'm sure some of the dealers that surf this board may not like this next statement but they can take it to task and correct the issue or ignore/deny it. If you find a competent salesman/dealer that actually asks what you want the tractor for and helps you determine what you need then you are lucky. My experience is that in the retail/compact segment tractor salesman are similar to car salesman - most have no clue either about the product they are selling or how to help you get the right tractor - they just try to sell you what is on their lot which is why you need to educate yourself before you go shopping.

 

[airbiscuit]

So everyone is kind of right, but no one is universally right. Everyone has to choose what is right for them, and a lot of that has to do with budget. I commend those who seek advice on TBN and the I think the diversity of comment is actually helpful. They can take it all in and make a decision (although some belabor the bejsus out of it). In the end some are happy with a SCUT on 40 acres, and others with a 50hp on 1 acre.

The problem I have seen with still wet behind the ears newbies, is they are enthralled with hp. They think they are getting a bargain with a 25 hp SCUT, when they would have been much better served by a 25 - 30 hp CUT. Often times weight does matter when it comes to traction and oomph.

I don't begrudge newbies who go that route. They will be happy enough with their first tractor. A lot of us have gone that route due to budget or opportunity. I went from a a 15hp grey market Shibaura to a 23 hp John Deere to a 33 hp New Holland to a 40 hp New Holland. Would I ever go back to something smaller and lighter? Absolutely not! Have I noticed substantial improvement in performance with a larger frame, larger tires, more weight? ABSOLUTELY? Did I need to take this circuitous route to get there? Probably (if I wanted to stay married).

The cool thing about CUTs is how they hold their value. I sold every one of my former tractors for what I paid for them or more. Every one I owned was fun to use and did a lot of work. That said, I'm happy where I ended up - with a bigger frame, bigger tires and more weight and traction. Oh, and the hp is nice, but none of my previous tractors lacked for hp for the tasks (even the little Shibaura). Too often though, they did come up short on traction.

So to kind of quote Jeff

"(Eventually) Buy Enough Tractor"

 

[jeff9366]

Re: GUIDE: Shopping/Sizing A Tractor (development version)

I have an opinion that is essentially completely opposite to Jeff's, and that is okay. I bought a BX, I didn't like it. It was tippy, it was hydraulically weak and it labored in every task I asked if it. Yet, it did it. But I was not willing to accept the limitations.

So I looked for the lightest tractor that would do what I felt I was asking if the BX, and the heaviest that I could see being in my turf. So I did consider the Kubota L and after a great amount of deliberation, I decided to go with the big B frame. The slope stability from a B2650/B3350 with the bigger and wider tires from the B3350SU, 1.5" spacers and fluid fill is so much improved that it defies the base weight variance by far.

Cost is absolutely always a strong consideration.
Space to store/fit is also almost always a very strong motivation in the decision process.

In your change from BX to a B you evaluated tractor options as I recommend, by weight. Ironic.

This is not an open source document. I am Captain commanding this guide.


"Shop your weight range within tractor brands. Budget will eliminate some choices."

"Most tractors under 3,000 pounds bare weight operate in residential or hobby farm applications on one to five flat acres. "Residential tractors" will enter a typical residential garage with 84" door height."

"Most tractors over 3,000 pounds bare weight are too tall to fit through an 84" height garage door, even with ROPS folded."

 

[jeff9366]

It is obvious from this thread that you are trying to drill the importance of weight into the discussion of a "newbie" looking for tractor advice.

However, I think several outstanding suggestions like Piston's have been rebuffed from being incorporated into your document to keep weight front and foremost.

This is true. Weight is a key factor which can be objectively evaluated.

This guide could easily go to ten pages. I am determined it print on one sheet of 8-1/2" X 11" paper. Revision 7 is shorter than Revision 6.

Anyyone can start a new thread on T-B-N if he or she desires to publish different advice.

 

[jeff9366]

So to kind of quote Jeff
"(Eventually) Buy Enough Tractor"

Thanks, AIRBISCUIT.

 

[majorwager]

what jeffy fails to grasp is the fact that folks do NOT ALL share his limited experience, A large segment purchase a 2000 lb tractor and happily operate that same tractor for decades,

When personal bias is the only prism through which advice is offered, the result of that vision can only be skewed if not completely flawed.

As for the "Captain Document remark", that ego driven reference can be distilled, (for the wine guy) to the fact that it is simply a post on a forum, no more valid or assigned more weight than any other competing comment. Not dealing with a Library of Congress Publication.

And putting experience in perspective, A wine salesman at an establishment that happened to own tractors, is not the same as personally operating and evaluating said equipment on a daily basis.

By his own admission, had the wine salesman truly been "hands on involved" with all this equipment on a vineyard, he would not have committed the self expressed errors in tractor purchases when he got to Florida.

The truth is jeffy has single perspective when considering a tractor purchase, but that opinion does NOT cancel folks such as Rock Crawler, and posts 114, 115, where an entirely different position is presented.

 

[Piston]

This is not an open source document. I am Captain commanding this guide.

Suggested revisions to Working Draft 7 are WELCOME.

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: It's kind of like when you offer that relative you don't really like to spend another night, but really your just hoping to god they don't take you up on it. :laughing::laughing::laughing:

 

[Rock Crawler]

Re: GUIDE: Shopping/Sizing A Tractor (development version)

I'll say again that cost and space are huge in selection. What is enough tractor for me? If the metric of weight and main job are only to be considered, you would tell me that I'm a fool and that I actually need a large skid steer. That I shouldn't have bought a tractor to do skid steer work.

But I wanted a multi tool, and a tractor is the epitome of the venerable multi tool that many of us carry. It's a lawn mower, it's a digging device, it's a landscape tool, it's a make shift excavator, it's a wheel borrow, it's a bull dozer, it's a brush clearing machine, it's a log splitter, it's a hay cutting machine, it's a generator and it's many other things.

I don't have a properly weighted machine for the current task at hand, but I get it done. And in a year or so when that is over, I'll still have the multi tool.

I don't want or care to have the size/weight machine that would easily handle the current major job of this tractor. I don't want to pay for it, I don't want to store it and I don't want the maintenance of it.

Like we've heard from a handful here, you can do utterly astounding large tasks with a simple and affordable SCUT if you have the desire and the time to eat that elephant.

Not one of those SCUT owners are wrong for buying the machine or for working through these dauntingly massive (for a SCUT) jobs. They bought a multi tool, and they took it to task. Successfully. They didn't make a mistake, they made a choice and they changed their future. They gained an amazing tool that empowered them to do great things that they otherwise were unable to do.

I bet price is one of the leading limitations to buying and another is space. I'd have an excavator, a 12,000 lb track skid steer, a small bull dozer and a Case industrial loader if I were rich and had the means to store, buy and maintain it all. Instead I have a B2650 multi tool that is covering the work of all. It's the right tractor, it's the right size and at the right price for me.

I once saw Jeff as what I thought of as a leading contributor here who I read and followed. His attitude here has turned me and I bet others off completely. I can tell that Jeff wants to do good, but his giant ego and to be preventing him learning and growing.

I'm done with this useless thread. In my opinion, moderators should just delete it, it's value is about nothing.

 

[daugen]

The problem I have seen with still wet behind the ears newbies, is they are enthralled with hp.

You bet. That was me. I bought the highest horsepower L when I should have bought a similar horsepower M Kubota.
I worried too much about my lawn and less about what the FEL could pick up.

Guys, you've been telling Jeff how biased he is and then you are surprised when you get a my way or the highway response.
Consciousness has certainly been raised but honestly Jeff you just told everyone to pound sand who is trying to help.
Otherwise this is like politics where you just choose to believe whatever you choose to believe, regardless of reality.

I'd be more interested in a discussion of what weight ranges you need in a tractor to effectively use certain implements.
Tractors are all about functionality, that's what I'd focus on.
One can buy the right weight tractor and hate it when one can't operate the power reverser easily, or you can't spin around to use the backhoe
...should have stuck with a hydrostatic pedal or a different model, same weight. The deal killer has nothing to do with weight, it's ergonomics.

my suggestion is to expand this document to include a variety of other factors, or retitle it something along the lines of Why Weight Is An Important Consideration

 

[majorwager]

Daugen,

Perhaps you appropriately determined the proper thread title in your 3rd paragraph above, "My Way or the HIghway".

Agree w/ sentiments expressed in Rock Crawler post.

 

[jeff9366]

It's like when you offer that relative you don't really like another night in the guest bedroom, but hope to god they don't take you up on it.

If you read Post #1 and compare it to Post #119 / Revision 7 you will notice several changes authored by contributors, which I inserted verbatim or edited slightly. The bar is high after five months.

Since Post #1 I have considered primarily insertion ready information. General comments, while I read and ponder them, are not seriously considered because of my resolve to keep guide short.

 

[s219]

Many (most) of us have gone through an upgrade(s). I think it's common to buy one tractor, use it for a bunch of years and learn, then once you have figured out your unique needs and uses, make a very educated decision about your next tractor.

This "relative" way to think about tractors, where you learn for yourself on tractor A and can make an educated decision about tractor B, will be perfectly customized to each individual and each property and each set of needs/uses.

If I am detecting a common theme here, it's that people have gone through this same process but come to different conclusions.

 

[jeff9366]

My suggestion: ~~ retitle it something along the lines of Why Weight Is An Important Consideration

Inspiring idea. But as you may not know, T-B-N titles cannot be edited after one hour.

 

[/pine]

In anything but heavy/commercial ground engaging applications...The most profound difference between a smaller, lighter tractor and bigger, heavier tractor is the amount of time required to perform the same typical use tasks...

Using typically common attachments a small, light tractor can do the exact same work a large heavy tractor can do...just not as efficiently time wise...

Don't buy more tractor than you actually need...

 

[majorwager]

S219,

It seems you are correct in that conclusions and opinions are very different on this topic. A "guide" that blatantly ignores relative input from other members and driven by a hyperactive ego is simply a flawed opinion.

Stated previously, folks w/ disposable income are reasonably intelligent and savvy, doubt they will read through the alternative positioned posts, and fail to note the glaring conflicts in the single sided "tractor weight" purchasing factor.

EDIT: As usual, SLASH PINE arrives with a sound perspective also expressed by his fellow members as well.

 

[GirlWhoWantsTractor]

"Most tractors under 3,000 pounds bare weight operate in residential or hobby farm applications on one to five flat acres."

There's a guy on youtube with large pumpkin farm on flat land who has an eMax 20XL (smallest they make) and is quite happy with it. I personally would have gone up a size or two there, but "one size does not fit all."

 

[rngrrymd]

Since Post #1 I have considered primarily insertion ready information. General comments, while I read and ponder them, are not seriously considered because of my dedication to keep guide short.

I don't think you need to keep your document as short as you have it, Jeff. Honestly, if someone comes looking on this tractor board for info and help and sees what is listed as a guide to tractor buying they will go to that thread and read at least the full initial post and quite possibly the whole thread. I think you are under-estimating the intelligence of a person that consciously decides to go looking for information to help him/her make the right purchase. The people that wouldn't read your whole document because it is too long wouldn't come here anyways and would just go the dealership and go buy a tractor without research anyways. They'll buy what Uncle Carl told them was good, or their neighbor has one, or whatever the salesman at the lot feels like selling them in their budget. I understand your desire to be concise but since it is listed as a "shopping guide" it should have as complete of info as possible even if that takes it to a full page or a little over.

This board has a diverse group of individuals with different experiences and opinions which is hard to get into one short document but right now I still say that the working document this thread is about is incomplete because great info to add to it has been suggested and it has been declined. There is more value at this point to reading the entire thread to get all the extra comments and info than that document provides. I will say again, please don't under-estimate those that come here for info - I read the entire thread and I already bought my tractor. Those "newbies" that come here are capable of reading the entire thread and a slightly longer document/guide as well.

In my post earlier I agreed with Piston's list of task, implements/attachments/capability of tractor/weight and then I put based on budget consider the tractors that can meet those requirements. The reality is that the #1 driving force for all tractor purchases is PRICE. If a person does all their homework, follows points 1-4 I have listed and decide they need a 4,000 lb tractor but then realize that tractor is out of their price range then they have a choice:
1. don't buy a tractor
2. scale back the list of tasks required to comply with their budget
3. buy too little tractor and make do until they have money to go bigger

We can only try to help inform someone to help them make the right choice of tractor including understanding how weight affects the performance of the tractor. The importance of having a complete guide for those that come looking for info is that the tbn community can properly help educate someone so they buy the right tractor in their price range instead of the wrong tractor in their price range. That should be the goal.

Happy 4th of July everyone!! I'm headed out to friends for bbq and swimming. Be safe.

 

[sd455dan]

Well in post #1 Jeff did post this:


I have been revising this screed for three days.
I seek outside criticism and input.
FIRE AWAY!



Buy enough tractor still makes (some) sense to me, tractors do seem to shrink when a person gets some seat time in.

And after reading /pine's recent post

"Using typically common attachments a small, light tractor can do the exact same work a large heavy tractor can do...just not as efficiently time wise..."

Agree with the statement- But as a counterpoint

What if you need to load a truck or lift an object higher than the limited height of some of these CUT loaders or It just doesn't have quite enough FEL lift capability to unload a pallet off a truck.
Or you can get a great deal on a heavy duty box blade or other 3 point attachment- but because a small CUT was purchased it wont lift it - let alone pull it. 2 of my used implements were acquired this way,
because of CUT owners thinking their tractor could handle the implement and then finding out they did not buy enough tractor.

In another case a local hay seller was reluctant at 1st to deliver hay to us because he had his time wasted the previous week by 2 CUT owners that said their tractor was more than capable of of unloading his trailer but when he arrived could not budge the bales. The guy had to turn around and drive back with a full load in 1 case, in the other there was a neighbor with a larger heavier tractor that was able to off load the bales.

Other than working in very tight areas or worrying about a bit of lawn damage on a wet day
buying a bit larger framed/weight tractor has few drawbacks and maybe some advantages like a better ride
due to larger tires

That said, still planning on eventually getting a smaller CUT or even SCUT to compliment my main tractor- for the smaller jobs- tight barn stall cleanouts.
In tight spaces the bigger machine does get a bit cumbersome but The difference sometimes is inconvenience versus not being able to do the job at all.

Obviously this would also apply to the tractor flat out being to big to get in or out of an area- in which case a smaller tractor is vital.

ps.

Happy Independence Day Everyone

 

[rbstern]

Jeff, I admire your willingness to attempt the guide. What follows is intended as constructive criticism.

I think you may be approaching the guide backwards, because:

There are a relatively finite number of tractor models on the market. There is an even smaller number of types/size groups of tractors (SCUT, CUT, utility, etc.).

It's much easier to summarize/generalize what a particular type of tractor does well, and doesn't do so well, than it is to try to distill the infinite potential uses and circumstances for all buyers. Simple evaluations like "weight matters most" or "horsepower is less important than you think," don't universally apply.

IMHO, a better approach to your guide would be describing the types of tractors available, and then expanding a bit to cover critical features. For example:

SCUT - description of typical weight range, horsepower range, available features, example models, and an open ended list of things these machines are designed to do, and what they will struggle to do (or simply take longer to do).

CUT - Same as you did for SCUT.

Utility - Ditto.

Etc.

Of course there will be exceptions, like machines that fall between these categories; this can be lightly highlighted without getting lost in the weeds.

And there are always issues that need further explaining, such as major accessories like loaders and backhoes, which are more costly (or impossible) to add later and would ideally be purchased with the tractor.

And there can be a more in depth coverage of key issues like why 4WD is important for some tasks. Or that a gear drive tractor excels at some uses, while hydrostatic offers easier operation and better suitability to other tasks. Actually, 2wd/4wd and transmission type probably each need a paragraph or two, since they are critical decisions, regardless of tractor size.

You could further expand the guide with very lightweight coverage of features like power steering, tire tread choices, ballast, etc., each described briefly and independent of the other issues.

Another section might be titled "Beyond a tractor: Should you be choosing something other than a tractor for what you want to do?"

Most of all, stress that the right tractor is the one the buyer can afford, is most comfortable operating, and is properly equipped for safely performing the most common tasks the user expects to use the tractor for.