Tractor Sizing GUIDE: Shopping/Sizing A Tractor (Version 1.0)

   / GUIDE: Shopping/Sizing A Tractor (Version 1.0) #31  
Rock Crawler,

See edit above, thanks


Airbiscuit,

Looking at your tractor list, do you personally purchase heavier tractors? Current Ownership?

A recent Messick's you tube tire video showed it is actually difficult to spin the tires. But test was NOT
Conducted on ice, however.
 
   / GUIDE: Shopping/Sizing A Tractor (Version 1.0) #32  
I'd have to largely agree with Jeff. Seems that some people take themselves tooooo seriously. Thanks for Posting Jeff

WORKING DRAFT (7.2)​

The most efficient way to shop for tractors is to list your tasks first, then determine bare tractor weight needed to safely accomplish your tasks. The fundamental importance of TRACTOR WEIGHT eludes many tractor shoppers. Heavier tractor chassis weight is more important for most tractor operations than increased tractor horsepower. Bare tractor weight is a tractor specification easily found in sales brochures and web sites, readily comparable across tractor brands and tractor models, new and used.

Within subcompact and compact tractor categories, bare tractor weight must increase 50% before you notice a significant tractor capability increase. It takes a 100% increase in bare tractor weight to elicit MY-OH-MY!

Shop your weight range within tractor brands. Budget will eliminate some choices. Collect a dealer brochure for each tractor model in your weight range. I spreadsheet tractor and implement specs, often a revealing exercise. I have a column for cost per pound.

Most tractors under 3,000 pounds bare weight operate in residential or hobby farm applications on one to ten flat acres. Subcompact and compact tractors under 3,000 pounds will enter a residential garage with typical 84" door height.

Selling a used tractor is easy. Selling multiple light implements in order to buy heavier, wider implements for a heavier tractor requires a lot of time. Depreciation on implements is generally greater than depreciation on a tractor.

Tractors over 3,000 pounds bare weight are generally offered in a utilitarian configuration and a deluxe configuration. Deluxe kit enhances productivity and operating comfort ~~~ but you must pay. Most tractors over 3,000 pounds bare weight are too tall to fit through an 84" height garage door, even with ROPS folded.

Heavier tractors are built on larger frames with larger wheels/tires. A heavier tractor with large diameter tires has more tractive power pulling ground contact implements, pushing a loader bucket into dirt and pushing snow. Larger wheels and tires increase ground clearance, enabling a heavier tractor to bridge holes, ruts and downed tree limbs with less bucking and disturbance operating over rough pasture and woodland.

Safe hillside operation demands more tractor weight than level land operation. Heavier tractors have adjustable rear wheel spreads; wide rear wheel spreads hugely improve tractor stability. Four wheel drive is essential on hillsides. Four wheel drive supplies increased traction. When descending slopes 4-WD augments rear brakes as tractor weight shifts forward, decreasing rear tire grip.

Tractors optimized for hill work have liquid installed in the rear tires rather than air. "Loaded" tires are filled 50% to 75% with liquid, which lowers the tractor's center-of-gravity, increasing rollover resistance. "Loading" two compact tractor rear tires will increase tractor weight 300 pounds to 800 pounds over weight of identical two tires inflated with air.

A quality dealer, reasonably close, available for coaching, is important for tractor neophytes. Almost every new tractor is delivered with a glitch or two requiring correction. My kubota dealer is six miles away. I feel my local dealer continues to add value to my equipment. Dealer proximity is less important to those experienced with tractors and qualified to perform their own maintenance..[/CENTER]
 
   / GUIDE: Shopping/Sizing A Tractor (Version 1.0) #33  
   / GUIDE: Shopping/Sizing A Tractor (Version 1.0) #34  
Spacers are available as a dealer added option option on my particular brand and model of tractor, so it was never a question. I would call your local servicing dealer and discuss with them if they see it as an issue. It would require them reporting the spacers to the warranty owner for it to be an issue. So if they said that it's a non issue, it should be a non issue.
 
   / GUIDE: Shopping/Sizing A Tractor (Version 1.0) #35  
...
Airbiscuit,

Looking at your tractor list, do you personally purchase heavier tractors? Current Ownership?

A recent Messick's you tube tire video showed it is actually difficult to spin the tires. But test was NOT
Conducted on ice, however.

Sooo, I grew up on a farm and learned early on that a lesser hp tractor with more weight and bigger wheels (John Deere B) will out pull a smaller tractor with more hp (Ford 8n).

My personal tractor buying history:

1941 John Deere B (sold)
1941 Farmall H (still have, but mostly retired)
Shibaura SD 1500 AO 15hp small frame CUT (Sold)
John Deere 850 25hp medium frame CUT (Sold)
New Holland 1925 33hp medium frame CUT (Sold)
New Holland T2310 40hp large frame CUT
New Holland TC21D 21hp small frame CUT

I bought the 19941 John Deere for $75 to pull horse drawn grader to maintain 1/2 mile drive - sold to buy (with no additional $$)
Farmall H
15hp Shibaura was first CUT @ $2,500 and used to cut in trails - used for 3 years and sold for $2,500
Upgraded to John Deere 850. Used for many years and sold for $1,500 more than I paid for it!
Bought New Holland 1925 - liked the creature comforts of a newer tractor, but a heavy wet snow storm and spinning my wheels doing other work led me to look for a large frame tractor. Sold it for what I paid for it after a few years use.
Bought a large frame 40hp New Holland T2310 = Nirvana
Gave the 21hp New Holland TC21D to my son (no longer needed it to mow my mother's large grounds)

For my needs, I sure do like the larger frame, heavier weight and LARGER TIRES. Budget and raising a family had me take a circuitous route getting there. Did I have a lot of fun and do a lot of work with that little Shibaura? Absolutely! Is that little 21hp new Holland still fun to use? Of course. For my needs, would I ever go back to something smaller than my large frame New Holland? Nope.

I think a lot of people do what I did. Get what you can afford, and then get something bigger for their next tractor. Everyone has different needs, different budgets and different preferences. My preference is traction over horsepower.
 
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   / GUIDE: Shopping/Sizing A Tractor (Version 1.0) #36  
Traction was less of an issue for me, though getting the rears of my B7800 loaded made a great difference: I could run in 2wd in more places. Not having a heavy footprint matters for me. My property has seem footprints here that have been massive (skidders), many of which I've spent a LOT of time cleaning up after.

HP matters if you're talking PTO work (rototiller is an exception where PTO work tends to require more traction, though this can be adjusted for a bit). Loader work too when considering pump flow: more pump flow requires more HP (though, given enough time less HP will managed to do the same amount of work- not sure anyone would find a 20 second+ bucket lift cycle acceptable ;)).

Larger tractors tend to also come with larger costs, maintenance as well as purchase. Neighbor spent something like $700 for a rebuild on his old industrial tractor's backhoe's boom cylinder: can't recall if this was just parts. And, if you screw up with a larger machine you can REALLY screw up (getting stuck is really painful; doing unintended damage to something can also be painful- with a simple flick of the bucket on the 20k excavator I managed to smash one of the tailgates on my ultra beefy dump trailer, something that I'd have had to work really hard to do with either of my tractors (especially my B7800).

Best "solution" is that which gets the job done, safely, within budget and withing the given time frame. Today's requirements are unlikely going to hold up tomorrow. That's just the way it is with time driving things. Perfection is something you move towards, not something that you can hit (especially on a first shot).
 
   / GUIDE: Shopping/Sizing A Tractor (Version 1.0)
  • Thread Starter
#37  
Every tractor brand includes a model in the 2,600 pound to 2,900 pound (bare tractor) range with 100 cubic inch/24 horsepower engine ample for your tasks. Tractors under 19 KW ( 19 KW = 25.4794-horsepower) are currently exempt from stringent, Tier IV emission controls which abruptly increase a tractor's cost some $2,000 above the 19 KW power demarcation.
 
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   / GUIDE: Shopping/Sizing A Tractor (Version 1.0) #38  
Kenmac,
Agree w/ your assessment. My MX is Also light in the rear, tires not loaded. I want to address the concept of bare weight. Messick's touched on this point as did Tractor Girl.

When a manufacturer designs a tractor, and a Bare Weight is established, it is the result of Proper Analysis of several factors such as hp and the front to rear component balance. The bare weight of a tractor is derived by determining the ability of a tractor to perform in stand alone mode.

The consumer decides which components to add as attachments or implements. The designer CAN NOT know how each tractor will be operated.
So the manufacturer makes ALLOWANCES for features such as the popular FEL. MY MX was FEL equipped, dealer removed it, since I did not require one.

The point is that the consumer can determine how the tractor performs by the EXTRA components HUNG on the tractor. The FEL may add weight yet change the center of gravity. I used my MX till 2017 w/ no FEL. Tractor now w/ FEL is actually less stable but suitable for more tasks. Why Don't all manufacturers just load the tires? Because extra rear weight isn't necessary until the consumer adds a component, the FEL

That addition alters how the tractor will perform from a tractive and stability perspective. Loading rear tires is a direct counter- balance on level surface. However, place the tractor perpendicular to a slope, and loaded tires are still a counter-balance But do to tractor position, does little to stabilize the machine. The uphill tire weight anchoring the tractor is offset by the other tire w/ downhill Force

CONCLUSION: jeff's weight obsession is less valid, than the manner in which the tractor is utilized with attachments and implements.

Example, mowing is the (my) MX primary function. HP powers the mower, Additional weight marks landscaped surfaces.

Shop weight when purchasing FOOD, NOT the most important tractor purchase consideration.

NEXT UP, a guide to "bear weight", Polar vs Brown.

JMO, If you are going to build a tractor with loader capable of lifting xxx weight. Then the tractor should be capable of lifting that weight without rear ballast
 
   / GUIDE: Shopping/Sizing A Tractor (Version 1.0) #39  
So having bought *my* first tractor within the last year-ish (worked around/with a few different ones tractors belonging to family members growing up), and working as engineer/acquisition professional I'd full agree with:

"The optimal way to shop for tractors is to list your tasks first." - as it's always good to know what the requirements are before making a purchase.

After that I think it's worth further identifying and defining any constraints (e.g. maximum footprint, minimum absolute lifting capacity, spending limits), and any trade-offs that would be acceptable (for example: time to complete a task safely vs. money spent on larger equipment).

Until a person has an relatively good idea of what they are willing to accept it doesn't seem to make much sense to be deciding on what to buy (unless there's no/little issue with trading a new purchase in order to adjust either up or down in size). Note: that doesn't say anything about "window shopping" to see what is currently available in different size/price ranges.

For example some requirements/constraints I had on my own purchase:

- effectively use non-powered tillage equipment (moldboard plows, disc harrows, etc) -- which favors heavier (for size/HP) tractors
- a FEL capable of lifting a minimum of 500lb load (roughly what a 55 gallon drum full of water weighs) to full lift height --- (preference for lifting 2+ drums)
- size had to be as small as possible (and still meet other requirements) given it would be used as a primary mower for just under 3 acres of lawn & pasture
- PTO usage would be primarily for finish mowing -- based on tearing up and bogging down multiple riding/zero turn mowers, the general rule I've developed for mowing (at least in this part of the country) is no more than 2" of mowing width per gross HP when mowing at 3-5mph
- had to be able to handle mowers capable of covering tractor width at a minimum
- speed/direction control had to be quick and simple as mowing involves maneuvering around multiple trees, as well as fence lines, with added potential for quick stops due to dogs & vehicular traffic
- open platform was preferable due to potential for contact with low/over hanging tree limbs
- dealer/repair/part support had to be readily available for the expected life of the tractor (no matter how well something is made, things eventually break and need to be repaired or replaced)
- a 3rd function valve would be required to support grapples and other hydraulic loader attachments used for assisting with tree care & storm cleanup
- rear remotes were desirable for top & tilt cylinders, while being able to simultaneously supporting a third hydraulic function
- telescoping lower links became a must (having grown up around tractors that had them it seemed natural thing to have, and after seeing videos of hooking up implements without telescopic lower links it became a mandatory requirement based on expected implement changes)
-preference was to buy new so as not to spend time dealing with potentially inherited problems

It wasn't until I had most of that list compiled that I even started looking at tractors which could potentially meet my needs (even then there was some refining going on regarding some specifics: like the number of rear remotes, and telescoping lower links).

Ultimately this all resulted in the purchasing of a L3560 HST as the tractor met my requirements and constraints -- and just as importantly the dealership was on my daily commute (it is also staffed by people who are helpful and friendly). In fact working with them was the only time I've ever had a sales person try to talk me into buying something cheaper/smaller than I came in intending to buy.

However, if even some of my requirements had been a bit different (for example if I was planning to use a tiller instead of a plow/disc combination) I may very well have gone with a lighter higher horsepower tractor. Where if my FEL minimums weren't what they are a Kubota B or BX size tractor would likely have sufficed. That's not exactly idle speculation either as I looked at going down both routes while I was developing my list of requirements for purchasing a tractor.

As it is with ~110 hours during my first year of use I currently can't see selling my L3560, even though I can see uses for adding both larger and smaller tractors (along with a lot more property) to my collection.

Anyway, just figured I'd share few thoughts on the topic given I've spent the last few years casually going through the process of researching, refining and eventually purchasing a first tractor (and it was definitely a difference to be buying one instead of just working with what was available).
 
   / GUIDE: Shopping/Sizing A Tractor (Version 1.0) #40  
JMO, If you are going to build a tractor with loader capable of lifting xxx weight. Then the tractor should be capable of lifting that weight without rear ballast

They should be and are, on flat level ground. Likely the lift specs are with the tractor sitting on a concrete floor. Carrying that same load *safely* up or down a hill or on rough ground may require ballast. Hilly/steep property is different. Why is this so hard to understand?
 

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