GVWR With vs. Without Tongue Weight

[Builder]

Dougster,

That's why I went & got my CDL a long time ago and got a "real" dumptruck & trailer. I just couldn't find a way to get around all that crap.

I know they're kinda expensive, but an aluminum trailer would really be great for your situation. Once in a while you see one, but they're pretty rare.

I don't think these trailer companies are much smarter than you & I and some of the other guys here. They're just trying to make a buck as easy as they can.

 

[Dougster]

Dougster, That's why I went & got my CDL a long time ago and got a "real" dumptruck & trailer. I just couldn't find a way to get around all that crap. I know they're kinda expensive, but an aluminum trailer would really be great for your situation. Once in a while you see one, but they're pretty rare. I don't think these trailer companies are much smarter than you & I and some of the other guys here. They're just trying to make a buck as easy as they can.

I saw a few REALLY BIG aluminum trailers when I was down in hurricane country. I remember the drivers telling me what they cost: Super-Megabucks! I've only seen one bumper pull aluminum dump trailer in my travels up here and it was really light-duty probably so a car or light SUV could haul it around.

No real dump truck for me anytime soon. Remember my residential zoning bylaws problem. I'll be lucky if they let me keep the dump trailer I'm finally zeroing in on.

Dougster

 

[QRTRHRS]

On your second point first: I have run into two trailers recently wherein the trailer GVWR was 12,000 lbs, axles were 6,000 lbs each... but the sum of the tire ratings was ~10,000 lbs. Both sellers actually got angry when I pointed that out. Strange world. On the other hand... and maybe I am just missing it... I have not spotted any obvious wheel ratings. Is there a code or particular place to look? Do I need stronger glasses? Or does it just go by number of lugs?

Back to your first point: I guess you are saying that tongue weight doesn't really count since The Man apparently has the right to disconnect your trailer and weigh it separately. Does jack stand rating suddenly enter into this equation? At least in terms of maybe not exceeding axle ratings? And maybe the same for GVWR in the case of those manufacturers who specify GVWR as sum of GAWRs plus ~15% tongue weight?

Obviously load placement could still get you on exceeding axle rating(s)... but if your friend's experience also applies in MA, sounds like it may be smart to buy a trailer with an overstated GVWR just to allow for tongue/jack stand weight to be considered... yes?

In regard to your friend's need to change his plate to "combination"... can you explain that further? Was the sum of his truck plus loaded trailer over 26,001 pounds? Did this change somehow allow him to continue his delivery with an overloaded trailer? Wouldn't it have been smarter to simply offload some of the hay? Or was the trailer rated/capable of more load... and just licensed for a max of 10,000 lbs (or 9,999 lbs) at the time?

Related to this, I must admit to being greatly amused at certain large, expensive, grossly overbuilt dump trailers I've found with monster axles and tires... but mere 9,999 lb GVWRs. The law makes for some very strange reading manufacturer's rating stickers!!!

Dougster

Wheels should be stamped somewhere with some identifying numbers. It may not get down to this level unless there is an accident involved.

Here in PA, in order to plate a trailer above 10,000 lb GW, you must register the truck and trailer in combination. I don't have the chart handy but there are several weight ratings to choose from. As you go up in weight, your wallet becomes lighter.

In my friend's case, his trailer axles were in but he was over 10,000 lbs, having some of that weight being carried by the truck he was pulling with that day. The DOT must have suspected that based on knowledge, whatever so they did ask him to disconnect. They then weighed the tongue as well. The combination of axle and tongue weight put his trailer over 10,000 lbs.

They did write him up and would not let him move as loaded. Rather than off load any hay, he chose to go upgrade the registration. I don't remember if he let the whole rig sit and have someone run him for the paperwork or what.

Though a farmer engaged in business, he still had to adhere to the weight laws. Now, perhaps they did him wrong. That I don't know. I will have to ask him if he ever spoke to anyone about the ordeal.

 

[Builder]

Wheels should be stamped somewhere with some identifying numbers. It may not get down to this level unless there is an accident involved.

Here in PA, in order to plate a trailer above 10,000 lb GW, you must register the truck and trailer in combination. I don't have the chart handy but there are several weight ratings to choose from. As you go up in weight, your wallet becomes lighter.

In my friend's case, his trailer axles were in but he was over 10,000 lbs, having some of that weight being carried by the truck he was pulling with that day. The DOT must have suspected that based on knowledge, whatever so they did ask him to disconnect. They then weighed the tongue as well. The combination of axle and tongue weight put his trailer over 10,000 lbs.

They did write him up and would not let him move as loaded. Rather than off load any hay, he chose to go upgrade the registration. I don't remember if he let the whole rig sit and have someone run him for the paperwork or what.

Though a farmer engaged in business, he still had to adhere to the weight laws. Now, perhaps they did him wrong. That I don't know. I will have to ask him if he ever spoke to anyone about the ordeal.

I've had several trailers over 10K and never had to register them in combination with my trucks.

What I have had to do is register my truck for a maximum GCWR, the weight of the truck plus a trailer, but never was my trailer ever registered in combo at the time of registration.

I just registered my 9 ton Cam Superline about 1.5 years ago-all by itself, no truck included.

 

[Dougster]

Wheels should be stamped somewhere with some identifying numbers. It may not get down to this level unless there is an accident involved.
Here in PA, in order to plate a trailer above 10,000 lb GW, you must register the truck and trailer in combination. I don't have the chart handy but there are several weight ratings to choose from. As you go up in weight, your wallet becomes lighter.
In my friend's case, his trailer axles were in but he was over 10,000 lbs, having some of that weight being carried by the truck he was pulling with that day. The DOT must have suspected that based on knowledge, whatever so they did ask him to disconnect. They then weighed the tongue as well. The combination of axle and tongue weight put his trailer over 10,000 lbs.
They did write him up and would not let him move as loaded. Rather than off load any hay, he chose to go upgrade the registration. I don't remember if he let the whole rig sit and have someone run him for the paperwork or what.
Though a farmer engaged in business, he still had to adhere to the weight laws. Now, perhaps they did him wrong. That I don't know. I will have to ask him if he ever spoke to anyone about the ordeal.

This sounds to me more like a PA registration/tax issue rather than a DOT regulation/safety inspection issue. If he was able to drive away with exactly the same load after getting himself some different paperwork, that has got to be the case.

Here in Taxachusetts, my truck is registered at 8,000 lbs instead of it's manufacturer stickered GVWR of 9,200 lbs. I saved a few dollars this way. But if I were carrying a load in the bed and exceeding 8,000 lbs... I'd probably be in the same boat as your friend... i.e., leave the truck parked, pay my fine, upgrade the registration, show The Man the paperwork... and eventually drive away with the same load.

Is this what we are talking about here?

Dougster

 

[Builder]

Doug,

Read my post above your last post ^ You don't have to register in combination-don't worry about that.

I'll tell ya what is a real PITA if you register your truck at a weight below the manufacturer's max GVWR, is trying to raise it up higher.

IOW, once you "de-rate" your truck from 9,200lbs to 8,000lbs, it's hard to raise it back up to 9,200lbs again.

I went through this with a 12,000lb trailer about 10 years ago. What happened was I had a couple employees who didn't have the right licencing to pull a trailer over 11,000 lbs behind my 15,000lb F-450 (I had to keep the total under GCWR 26,000lbs), so I "de-rated" the registration on the trailer to 10,000lbs. Then after those employees left, I decided to re-register the trailer back up to it's original 12,000lb rating.

No worky in PA.

I had to fill out a form called a PA MV-401 where the trailer has to be inspected & certified by a mechanic to carry more than it's registered weight, which unfortunately for me was only 10,000lbs because I derated the trailer from 12K to 10K.

So in PA, the moral of the story is-once you "derate" a motor vehicle lower than its' original weight, it's a sum biotch to get it registered back up to its' original higher GVWR.

 

[Dougster]

Doug, So in PA, the moral of the story is-once you "derate" a motor vehicle lower than its' original weight, it's a sum biotch to get it registered back up to its' original higher GVWR.

My sense is that it would not be a big deal up here in the People's Republic... at least not for 1,000 lbs and a pickup truck. It's just about collecting taxes here.

The truth be known, I was actually going to register it at 10,000 lbs (we go up in fees 1,000 lbs at a time so 9,200 = 10,000)... until BOTH my insurance guy AND the guy at the RMV together talked me out of it. How's that for weird?

But to me, the truck rating itself doesn't really matter much. All that goes in the back of the truck are a few odd tools when I am towing. The dump trailer will handle the bulk of the payload with only ~1,000 lbs (+/-) on the hitch. If I do get this latest trailer I found, it has a GVWR of 14,000 lbs and weighs nearly 3,800 lbs. My chassis & hitch are good for 12K but according to Chevy, my 6.0L engine is only good for 10K. The whole thing makes me wonder what I should register that trailer at to best keep The Man off my back!

Dougster

 

[Builder]

But to me, the truck rating itself doesn't really matter much. All that goes in the back of the truck are a few odd tools when I am towing. The dump trailer will handle the bulk of the payload with only ~1,000 lbs (+/-) on the hitch. If I do get this latest trailer I found, it has a GVWR of 14,000 lbs and weighs nearly 3,800 lbs. My chassis & hitch are good for 12K but according to Chevy, my 6.0L engine is only good for 10K. The whole thing makes me wonder what I should register that trailer at to best keep The Man off my back!

Dougster

I would register it at 10,000lbs for a couple reasons:

1. it's at the mythical "10K", which a lot of cops think you need a CDL to be over 10K (10,001lbs) trailer (in which case they'd be wrong, but we already know that)

2. If your truck is an '07, it is rated for a max trailer rating of either 10,500 (4x2) or 10,300 (4x4) with a 6l V-8. It also says you need a weight distributing hitch for any trailer over 7,500lbs and should not exceed 1,000lb tongue weight. You can go to the 10,300/10,500 with a WD hitch, but cannot exceed 1,500lbs TW.

I wouldn't worry about the WD hitch just as long as your hitch is rated for a minimum of 10K and 1K tongue weight. 12K and 1,200 TW would be better. That way you know you have "too much" hitch-again, think "don't bring a knife to a gun fight".

Register the trailer at 10,000 and you should be fine, but one question comes to mind: why a 14K trailer when you'll never be able to take advantage of the full 14K? Why not a 12K? That way you get a little overkill (2K lbs) but not pay for a full 4K pounds of overkill? Heck, you could just get a 10K trailer and you'd have all your truck can handle!!

On your truck: just make sure you weigh your truck empty before you make that kind of commitment. My 3500 4x4 crewcab with a utility body full of tools shocked me when I found out it weighs 8,200lbs, so I only have a remaining payload/TW of 1,700 lbs left available to me.

I wouldn't be surprised if your truck weighed close to 7,000lbs with fuel & passengers. Unless it's really light, like a 4x2 reg cab, etc.. better safe than sorry.

Going back to re-registering higher. Although I'd like to think it was as easy as paying a registration "tax" and asking for a higher registered GVWR, you might be surprised. The state thinks in funny ways. Once they see a vehicle has been registered lighter in weight, they might think the reason is because you modified the truck in some way. Maybe they think you put lighter duty tires on it, pulled the helper springs out, etc. So that's why they make you PROVE the vehicle can be re-registered at a higher weight, even if it's the vehicle manufacturer's weight specified on the door jamb sticker!

I know it sounds crazy, but that's the way they think!

 

[Dougster]

On your truck: just make sure you weigh your truck empty before you make that kind of commitment. My 3500 4x4 crewcab with a utility body full of tools shocked me when I found out it weighs 8,200lbs, so I only have a remaining payload/TW of 1,700 lbs left available to me. I wouldn't be surprised if your truck weighed close to 7,000lbs with fuel & passengers. Unless it's really light, like a 4x2 reg cab, etc.. better safe than sorry.

Curb weight on my truck is just under 6,000 lbs leaving me a bit over 2,000 lbs for me, fuel, tools, chains, plow and ballast box (the heaviest I ever run). And, yes... looks like you may be right! I am probably 200-500 pounds overweight (i.e., over 8K registered) in that winter mode.

Register the trailer at 10,000 and you should be fine, but one question comes to mind: why a 14K trailer when you'll never be able to take advantage of the full 14K? Why not a 12K? That way you get a little overkill (2K lbs) but not pay for a full 4K pounds of overkill? Heck, you could just get a 10K trailer and you'd have all your truck can handle!

You are correct. Cost & availability issues aside, a maximum 3,000 lb, 12K-rated trailer less than 96 inches wide with dual-cylinders and 235 width radial tires would fit my physical and legal needs best. Unfortunately, I lost the only such trailer I'd found that I could afford through stupid hesitation and pure bad luck. Yes... my bad.

That 14K monster is my "give up and just buy anything right away" consolation prize.

Dougster

 

[Builder]

Do you need it right now? I think 10 & 12K dump trailers are pretty common GVWR's, although most dealers are prolly low on inventory this time of year.

It would help shave off some empty weight compared to a 14K trailer and leave you some extra payload if you register it ~10K lbs. A 10K GVWR trailer would actually be legal with more weight registered at 10K than a 14K GVWR trailer registered at 10K because the 10K GVWR trailer weighs less empty than 14K GVWR.

Also remember, it's a bugger trying to re-register the trailer at a higher weight once you "de-register" it below its' original rating.....might make it tougher to re-sell once you decide to get rid of it. Might be tough to sell a 14K trailer to someone if they know they can't register it over 10K.

How far are you willing to travel to get a good deal?