GVWR With vs. Without Tongue Weight

[Dougster]

I'm looking at an "Appalachian" 12 ton trailer (24,000 GVWR). Looks like it has (2) 10,000 lb axles.
Cam is not the only ones who do it.

That's very interesting. I was focusing in hard on that brand when I was thinking about a dump trailer long enough to trailer my tractor in limited cases. They were supposedly the only ones that were available "off the shelf" in 18-ft bumper-pull versions... and even with your choice of ratings!

Turns out they are actually all built to order with a 3-4 week wait. My nearest trailer guy also bad-mouthed them to no end... and he SELLS them. Go figure.

Never did actually set my eyes on one... he doesn't actually stock them... so I can't comment on build quality.

Dougster

 

[john_bud]

Read this to see how the weight is transferred to the TOW VEHICLE'S AXLES...

RV.Net Open Roads Forum: Towing: Weight Distribution (WD) Hitch --- How it Works

Good link! Thanks, It is as I suspected that there is some of the tongue weight brought back to the trailers axle. Looks to be about 1/3 of the tongue weight.

So, if you are counting on the tongue weight to keep from getting overloaded, you have a complex calculation to make to see what the actual weight on the trailer is.

jb

 

[Builder]

One thing to keep a sharp eye on is that the WD hitch itself weighs a good 150lbs. So all the weight that the wd hitch removes is not free, you must take 150lbs off of it.

 

[QRTRHRS]

Dude,

You are WAAAAAYYY too worried about the small stuff. Try some decaf LOL

Look if in your 2nd example you ARE over the GVWR or the axle's weight capacity, the DOT understands that some of the weight sits on the azz of the truck. Anyone except the cute little female LEOs know that!

If he doesn't believe you, put the jack down on your trailer and unhitch it from your truck with the load still on the trailer. Pull the truck forwar 3 feet. Put truck in park. Ask the LEO to hold the tongue area of the trailer while you lower the jack....

Unless he's an extraordinary powerlifter, he won't be able to support the tongue area and the tongue of the trailer will continue to sink as you lower the jack.

That will prove that a certain percentage (minimum 10% max 20% or whatever the max tongue weight of your truck is) sits on the back of the truck.

All they will do is weigh out your total with a scale and see how much you are "overweight". Then they'll decide how much "credit" they'll give you for tongue weight.

Just try to keep it closer to 10% than 20% if you're really worried.

Why do you think trailer hitches have "tongue weight" ratings?

First off, I have had a particularly long week so in reading through this thread I may have missed some things.

However, I do want to reinterate something that I have posted in the past.

My farmer friend who does hold a CDL was making a hay delivery. I don't remember which truck he had but he was pulling a tag along licensed at 10,000 lbs when the local (Berks County, PA) DOT qualified police pulled him in.

Indeed they did ask him to seperate his trailer. They had portables under both tandems and his jack. Being that the trailer was over the allowable 10,000 lbs once disconnected, he ended up being fined.

He also had to go change his plate to a combination in order to move his trailer and make his delivery.

Further, I see the focus on axle ratings. Do not overlook your tire ratings. Any DOT officer worth his salt is going to be educated/experianced enough to look at the tires. You just may be surprised at what some trailers happen to have mounted on the wheels. Wheels? They have ratings as well.

 

[Dougster]

First off, I have had a particularly long week so in reading through this thread I may have missed some things.
However, I do want to reinterate something that I have posted in the past.
My farmer friend who does hold a CDL was making a hay delivery. I don't remember which truck he had but he was pulling a tag along licensed at 10,000 lbs when the local (Berks County, PA) DOT qualified police pulled him in.
Indeed they did ask him to seperate his trailer. They had portables under both tandems and his jack. Being that the trailer was over the allowable 10,000 lbs once disconnected, he ended up being fined.
He also had to go change his plate to a combination in order to move his trailer and make his delivery.
Further, I see the focus on axle ratings. Do not overlook your tire ratings. Any DOT officer worth his salt is going to be educated/experianced enough to look at the tires. You just may be surprised at what some trailers happen to have mounted on the wheels. Wheels? They have ratings as well.

On your second point first: I have run into two trailers recently wherein the trailer GVWR was 12,000 lbs, axles were 6,000 lbs each... but the sum of the tire ratings was ~10,000 lbs. Both sellers actually got angry when I pointed that out. Strange world. On the other hand... and maybe I am just missing it... I have not spotted any obvious wheel ratings. Is there a code or particular place to look? Do I need stronger glasses? Or does it just go by number of lugs?

Back to your first point: I guess you are saying that tongue weight doesn't really count since The Man apparently has the right to disconnect your trailer and weigh it separately. Does jack stand rating suddenly enter into this equation? At least in terms of maybe not exceeding axle ratings? And maybe the same for GVWR in the case of those manufacturers who specify GVWR as sum of GAWRs plus ~15% tongue weight?

Obviously load placement could still get you on exceeding axle rating(s)... but if your friend's experience also applies in MA, sounds like it may be smart to buy a trailer with an overstated GVWR just to allow for tongue/jack stand weight to be considered... yes?

In regard to your friend's need to change his plate to "combination"... can you explain that further? Was the sum of his truck plus loaded trailer over 26,001 pounds? Did this change somehow allow him to continue his delivery with an overloaded trailer? Wouldn't it have been smarter to simply offload some of the hay? Or was the trailer rated/capable of more load... and just licensed for a max of 10,000 lbs (or 9,999 lbs) at the time?

Related to this, I must admit to being greatly amused at certain large, expensive, grossly overbuilt dump trailers I've found with monster axles and tires... but mere 9,999 lb GVWRs. The law makes for some very strange reading manufacturer's rating stickers!!!

Dougster

 

[Builder]

First off, I have had a particularly long week so in reading through this thread I may have missed some things.

However, I do want to reinterate something that I have posted in the past.

My farmer friend who does hold a CDL was making a hay delivery. I don't remember which truck he had but he was pulling a tag along licensed at 10,000 lbs when the local (Berks County, PA) DOT qualified police pulled him in.

Indeed they did ask him to seperate his trailer. They had portables under both tandems and his jack. Being that the trailer was over the allowable 10,000 lbs once disconnected, he ended up being fined.

He also had to go change his plate to a combination in order to move his trailer and make his delivery.

Further, I see the focus on axle ratings. Do not overlook your tire ratings. Any DOT officer worth his salt is going to be educated/experianced enough to look at the tires. You just may be surprised at what some trailers happen to have mounted on the wheels. Wheels? They have ratings as well.

That's a compelling case you bring forth, but once the trailer is unhooked, the load that used to rest on the truck's bumper, has now been transfered solely to the trailer (each tire and the jack). The load that sits on the jack, once the trailer is re-hitched, goes back onto the truck's rear suspension, effectively lightening the load on the trailer. Doesn't it?

I'm telling you as sure as the sun comes up tomorrow, my trailer GVWR is 18,400lbs and both axles are only rated at 8,000 lbs (total 16,000lbs).

That tells me that the good folks who built my trailer know that it's legal to allow 15% (2,400lbs) of your trailer's load to rest on the back bumper of the truck that's towing it.

From what I'm seeing, if the sum total of the axle's load capacities are under the GVWR of the trailer, then that remaining load must be borne by the rear suspension of the truck.

If the sum total of the axle's load capacities are the same as the trailer's GVWR, there still must be tongue weight transfered to somewhere, right?

This is a very interesting quandry that we must get to the bottom of.

 

[KAB]

L39

A problem would arise if the trailer is improperly loaded. What happens if there is only 10% tongue weight (Could still be properly loaded). Then the axles would be overloaded by 560# (assuming loaded to max payload).

What happens to axle weight with a WD hitch or not being hooked so that weight is not distributed between both axles?

Either way it would require the user to be extra careful to make sure the trailer is properly loaded.

To me, this is just a numbers game that trailer mfg's use to make thier trailer look better than the competition. The same as truck mfg's.

Kurt

 

[Builder]

L39

A problem would arise if the trailer is improperly loaded. What happens if there is only 10% tongue weight (Could still be properly loaded). Then the axles would be overloaded by 560# (assuming loaded to max payload).

What happens to axle weight with a WD hitch or not being hooked so that weight is not distributed between both axles?

Either way it would require the user to be extra careful to make sure the trailer is properly loaded.

To me, this is just a numbers game that trailer mfg's use to make thier trailer look better than the competition. The same as truck mfg's.

Kurt

Of course! In all this conversation, I make the assumption that everyone knows to not overload/underload the tongue area of the trailer! The old rule of thumb is to check for "squat" at the rear tires of the truck. If the tires squat too much-overloaded tongue. If no squat or the tires gain clearance-then not enough tongue weight.

For example: for my trailer to carry its' max capacity of 18,400 GVWR, it must have 15% of its' weight on the tongue area, and the remaining 85% over the axles, or I would be illegal somewhere. But since I bought MORE trailer than I need, I feel I'm safe up to about a 12-13,000lb object on the trailer.

Actually, the group that it REALLY favors is the DOT. It basically insures that any DOT cop can find SOMETHING wrong with your set-up no matter how hard you try because of the confusion.

That's why I always recommend buying MORE trailer and trailer hitch than you think you need. Just think, you could buy a trailer and get pulled over and if you're barely within your capacities but had one or two tires low on air, they could fine you since tires need to be filled to their max capacity to carry the max load specified on the sidewall.

Moral of the story: Don't bring a knife to a gunfight, buy more trailer than you think you'll need.

 

[john_bud]

Of course! In all this conversation, I make the assumption that everyone knows to not overload/underload the tongue area of the trailer! The old rule of thumb is to check for "squat" at the rear tires of the truck. If the tires squat too much-overloaded tongue. If no squat or the tires gain clearance-then not enough tongue weight.

For example: for my trailer to carry its' max capacity of 18,400 GVWR, it must have 15% of its' weight on the tongue area, and the remaining 85% over the axles, or I would be illegal somewhere. But since I bought MORE trailer than I need, I feel I'm safe up to about a 12-13,000lb object on the trailer.

Actually, the group that it REALLY favors is the DOT. It basically insures that any DOT cop can find SOMETHING wrong with your set-up no matter how hard you try because of the confusion.

That's why I always recommend buying MORE trailer and trailer hitch than you think you need. Just think, you could buy a trailer and get pulled over and if you're barely within your capacities but had one or two tires low on air, they could fine you since tires need to be filled to their max capacity to carry the max load specified on the sidewall.

Moral of the story: Don't bring a knife to a gunfight, buy more trailer than you think you'll need.

Interesting points. One of the things that really bugs me about this topic is just how stinking awful the laws are written! The lawyers and politico's don't know diddlly about trailers and trucks. Heck, they think a Ford Escape Hybrid is a "truck"!! The DOT guys are not much, if any, better. They have all the latitude in the world to interpret the awful laws any way they want. Who do you have to complain to? Some Judge that already thinks you're guilty and agrees about that Ford Escape being more truck than any rational person needs! Most judges probably think tongue weight involves a painful piercing....

It's more like bringing a bar of soap carved to look like a knife to a Tank Battle (in the rain).

jb

 

[Dougster]

That's why I always recommend buying MORE trailer and trailer hitch than you think you need.

Point well taken... unless your truck's (not hitch's) rating towing capability (like mine) is limited such that a much heavier built trailer starts to eat dangerously into your trailer's net load carrying capability. That's the boat I am in on a couple of these real "monster-built" trailers.

Related to this: I still can't get over those silly 9,999 lb GVWR "derated" stickers put on monster capable trailers just so drivers don't need a CDL when towing with a vehicle with a GVWR over 16,000 lbs! Some of these monster trailers are well over 4,000 lbs all by themselves... lowering the LEGAL weight carrying capability to under 6,000 lbs! How silly is that? Assuming that monster trailer was not bought to cart around dry mulch, it's an obvious LEGAL overload situation. Cops must LOVE those silly derated stickers! Instant guaranteed violations probably 99% of the time!

On the other hand, this discussion has me wondering now about trailer manufacturer's sticker GVWR vs. state registered GVWR. Why does anyone ever need to buy a trailer with a derated GVWR? Why can't they simply register the monster trailer with their state at a lower GVWR in order to escape the CDL requirement? In other words, when do the cops use manufacturer's sticker GVWR vs. state registered GVWR???

I was always taught that the lower of the two ratings governed.

Dougster