This is a great forum! I joined because of my tractor and I'm building a barn (by myself) soon and there were lots of threads here about peoples´ experiences w/ barn building. I don't know much about welding or farming, or, well, lots of things, but this is a subject that I know something about so I can jump in!
This thread covers so many subtopics, it's hard to know where to start, but I haven't seen anyone here write from a doctor's perspective yet, so here goes. Before you read further there are 2 caveats: I am a physician, and I am a mostly lacto-ovo-vegetarian (not vegan). You can flame me all you want in replies, but this is what 10 years of post-bachelor's degree study and past 6 years working experience tells me.
(If you don't read my entire long post/rant here, look toward the bottom for the links to the CHIP program.)
First, there are errors in several posts that I would like to debunk: I would caution taking anything one single researcher or promoter says as truth. Science is based on many, many studies taken together to form a whole. You can prove almost anything with a single study. Look at the cigarette co's for years trying to prove the "healthiness" of smoking. Stay away from fad diets, or "eliminating this thing(specific fat, protein, additive) from my diet" or "t��his worked for me so it will work for you" stories. Anecdotes are not science! Yes, some alcoholics don't get cirrhosis and some smokers don't get emphysema or lung cancer, but look at the statistics.
"Origin of ancestors diet" -- Nope, nothing there that I know of (but haven't researched).
"Grain needs to ferment"/"we don't have a rumen so we can't digest plants" = Completely false. You eat bread don't you? The yeast ("fermenting") is just to make the bread rise. You could eat it without the yeast and get the same nutrition...in cracker format. Eating meat takes many times the arable land to feed 1 person as eating a vegetarian diet and your body will get all the nutrients it needs as a vegetarian. Many cultures that are primarily vegetarian over generations have been very healthy and long lived -- so much so that they are researched heavily (see Blue Zones below).
"Vegetarians are at risk for B12 deficiency" -- sort-of true. If you are complete vegan, then yes, but the amount you need in your diet is quite low. Vitamin B12 is made by certain bacteria and fungi. Animals get it from the soil, on the dirt they ingest with the plants. Then, if you eat meat, eggs, milk, you get enough. Because of how carefully everything is washed nowadays, vegans aren't eating much dirt and can get deficient.
Lacto-ovo-vegetarians, who eat occasional eggs & milk, are fine.
"Worthington (or other) meat substitutes are meat based" -- hahaha.
Again, not true. They are fine for supplemental protein and have lower fat and cholesterol than meat. Yes, I agree with the other poster that they taste good. Most Americans get way too much protein in their diets, and you just urinate it out. Everything in moderation my friends!
"Medicine is big business in this country, about 20% of the GDP. There are a lot of people out there who stand to lose a whole lot of money if people figure out how to stop being sick on their own." -- What a joke. Maybe drug co's. Sure I'd be out of a job if nobody got cancer, had accidents of all kinds, and had the 1000's of diseases known to man. Most of the diseases were around before modern medicine. Example: people died from "consumption" -- which could have been cancer, TB, etc. Now we can separate them into distinct diseases which we can treat. Healthy people just don't keel over from pneumonia, appendicitis, bowel obstructions, or infected gallbladders anymore. In fact, they are treated so well that people now die of heart disease, which only the royalty and nobles would have had centuries ago.
Sometimes medicine isn't looking at the overall picture, but almost every MD would agree with everything I'm posting here. People just don't want to hear the plain truth. They want the miracle pill, or the fix-it-fast cure. Decades of overeating, smoking, drinking, and sedentary lifestyle can't be fixed overnight or by drugs. The lipitors, beta-blockers, pain medicines, etc. etc. are just alleviating the symptoms of bigger underlying problems. Your family doc or internist should be talking to you about this. If not, find someone that does. Our/my true business is to make people healthy to the best of my ability, not pander to an insurance company, drug company, or government agency.
This thread started out with a discussion of eliminating fats and cholesterol from your diet. While a lower fat and lower cholesterol diet is desirable, you cannot eliminate them from your diet, and plant based fats are actually beneficial. Did you know that cell walls have a high proportion of cholesterol? Your body makes a bunch of it every day if you don't eat it. Someone mentioned taking certain plant based foods entirely out of their diet, like nuts and avocados, because they are high in fat. Bad idea. Most of them are great for your body. Of course, if all you eat is avocados all day you may have a problem....
Did any of you see the story in Nat. Geographic a few years back about several societies/cultures that had the highest concentrations of centenarians (people living more than 100 years)? I'm talking a healthy long life, not feeble and demented people in hospital beds. Statistically, these people have 6 contributing factors to healthy long life: 1. a diet that is heavy on grains, fish, fruits, and vegetables and light on meat, eggs, and dairy products, 2. Low-stress lifestyles, 3. family/caring community, 3. high levels of activity/exercise, 5. spirituality, and 6. no smoking. There are multiple studies of Japanese (esp. Okinawa studies), Adventists (esp. in Loma Linda, CA), and residents of Sardinia, Italy. (Do a search on Blue Zones in Google.)
What hasn't been mentioned here is not just the high meat concentration in our diets, but the high degree of pre-processing on store shelves. Almost everything on the supermarket shelves has additives & preservatives & substances to make it "more healthy" while who knows how much more carcinogenic in the process. Fruits and vegetables are being sprayed with "biofilms" to keep them fresh longer. Another example, EPA rules prevent dumping certain industrial waste toxins in landfills, but you can spread them on fields as "fertilizers." That's bad enough when you eat the produce, but by eating meat you are then eating the concentrated toxins. This stuff is just beginning to get researched.
Before any of you read too much between the lines, I do have an underlying reason for my own personal lifestyle. Forums don't like to hear it but I've noticed several members here have Bible texts in their signature lines, so here's my quick one-liner: as a Christian, I consider my body to be the temple of God. (How can a scientist be a Christian is a whole different thread with lots and lots of data.) Therefore, I want to feed it the best I can. Yes, Jesus ate fish and probably other meats, but that was what was available and the custom. I live in the Northwest and the salmon from the Rogue River and Pacific Ocean is good!
If you're looking at better eating and better lifestyle, please consider the "CHIP program" -- Complete Health Improvement Program. (formerly known as Coronary Health Improvement Project). It's a great course on healthy eating and lifestyle changes. The cost is minimal for what you get (covers materials) and the course is usually filled. It meets in either a hospital/clinic conference room, church fellowship hall, hotel conference room, etc. It gives you a chance to improve your lifestyle & eating habits with a local support group. There are pre-course and post-course blood labwork (i.e. HDL's/LDL's), BP's, weight.
Here's a link:
Complete Health Improvement Program | CHIP Health
The county hospital I work here in Southern Oregon is sponsoring a CHIP course this month. Sometimes, I'm involved in giving supplemental presentations on atherosclerosis. Many of my family doc or internist friends are also involved in the local sub-presentations. We don't get paid for it.
CHIP is endorsed by the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine (PCRM), the Center for Science in the Public Interest (CSPI), and the International Nutrition Research Foundation. The Program results have been published in numerous scientific articles in peer-reviewed medical journals, including the American Journal of Cardiology, theJournal of the American Diatetic Association, and Preventive Medicine.
Overall take home message of heart healthy *living* (not just eating):
1. Mostly plant based, non-processed diet
2. More exercise
3. Less stress
4. Stop smoking!
Marcus Bryner, MD
