Heat Pump question...

[955Lincoln]

Glad that you got your unit working Moss.

I'm not a HVAC person but I know my older system inside and out because I have had to repair it so many times. 30yo Carrier but the outdoor unit was replaced maybe 10 years ago.

Newer smart systems and thermostats may have a work around for this problem but I wired my system with an outdoor thermostat to keep the EM heat from coming on when you turn up the heat more than a few degrees. The problem is, when the unit goes into defrost (which switches to A/C mode with outdoor fan not running) you get the blast of cold air inside because it won't allow the EM heat to come on while in defrost unless the outdoor thermo is tripped due to cold weather. If I had 2 outdoor thermostats, the second one (set colder) could switch the system over to backup heat when it's really cold outside and the heat pump isn't efficient anymore.

 

[955Lincoln]

I bought one of the newer ones at lowes and it should have been compatible with my single stage heat pump but would not run right. I even took it back for a new one. I got on the phone with honeywell or whoever made it they went over my settings and could not figure it. You need that "heat recovery setting" This will gradually step the heat up for when a new temp program comes up so that there should not be a 2 degreee difference to keep the strips from coming on. Mine works with out strips on all but the very coldest days (i have no insulation inmy walls.). That new one i got would act like it worked but i would come home at 4:30 when it was supposed to be 65 in the house with the heat recovery setting so no strips should be used. Anyway it would be 72F in the house with heat stips running? Why it did this i have no idea, it was only when it warmed the house up any other time that program would maintain 65F but the first time it turned the heat on for the program its like it hung up? My point in saying this is that just cause you buy o program t stat it may not be compatible even though it says it is?

You must have the same model Honeywell that I have and if I was smart I would take a sledge hammer to it. Same problem, when it's cold outside and I turn the heat up from a setback it will climb 3 or 4 degrees higher than I want. When it's not so cold outside and the pump can warm the house during a reasonable time frame it works ok. I really can't use the program features because of this problem, which is why I bought it, so I use it like a manual thermostat and inch it up a little at a time. I spent a lot of time on the phone with Honeywell and the frustration level was off the scale getting a different person each time and having to describe the problem over and over with no results.

 

[LD1]

For the most control over your heating, you need a manual t-stat. Not a programmable one.

My wife and I both work days. It is as simple as turning it down before we go to bed, then turning it down some more when we go to work. Then turning it up when we get home.

 

[clemsonfor]

You must have the same model Honeywell that I have and if I was smart I would take a sledge hammer to it. Same problem, when it's cold outside and I turn the heat up from a setback it will climb 3 or 4 degrees higher than I want. When it's not so cold outside and the pump can warm the house during a reasonable time frame it works ok. I really can't use the program features because of this problem, which is why I bought it, so I use it like a manual thermostat and inch it up a little at a time. I spent a lot of time on the phone with Honeywell and the frustration level was off the scale getting a different person each time and having to describe the problem over and over with no results.

It could be hunter? It was the MId or top grade one they had at lowes. Aboiut a 2x3 inch touch screen. I think it was back lit in blue and or orange depending on heat or cool mode. I took it back and got my $60 or so back from lowes. I told them that it flat out did not work and i had 2 installed at the house. And that it was not my incompitance as i have a probly 10 year old one on the wall thats worked perfectly for months in all settings. I just wanteed something more "modern" looking and not the old giant t-stat i have. A few years later i still have the one i got of ebay for a deal working!

 

[LD1]

In my saturday morning boredom, I comprised a spread sheet similar to the one I use that you all can check out.

All you have to do is input the info in the RED boxes and it should give you outputs.

If you dont have propane or natural gas, you can leave those sections blank.

If you dont have an amp meter to check your HP, you can use the FLA data on the nameplate outdoors. Just be sure to add them together. Because with mine, they list the compressor FLA, and the Outdoor Fan FLA seperatally. You dont need to worry about the blower inside for this. Because it is constant no matter what of the 4 forms of heating we are comparing on that spreadsheet.

I left my inputs in there in the red boxes so you can see what I am looking for. Feel free to try it out and share your results. As you can see with my #'s left in there, propane isnt much better than straight electric resistive heat:confused2: Not sure on Nat gas, but I always heard it was ~$1 per 100cf. If that is true, you guys are lucky

Hopefully the attachment works, since we cannot upload .xls format directly

 

[Mickey_Fx]

GRS,

What T-Stat do you recomend? My unit is like a 2007 unit, Carrier.

I would like more control over its performance.

Thanks in advance,

David

Been away from this thread for a few days so I'd chime in again.

David, check with you dealer to see what is available that works with your current equipment. In prior post you said the few features I mentioned are way more than yours. I have a Bryant a sister company to Carrier. Same thing with different name. Dealer said some of their equipment comes with labels for them to attach, either Bryant or Carrier.

In one of my posts I spoke about defrost cycles and how that can impact power usage with electric aux heat. Just to back up what I said, decided to take a look see at the recorded data. First stage is lowest and third the highest and is what is on during defrost cycle.

With lock-out point set @ 30F here are the run times in hrs for each heat cycle. 1st = 16, 2nd = 6, 3rd = 36 of which 31 hrs for just defrost. So far this yr HP cycles are as follows. Heat = 1894, Defrost 972. That's a whole lot of cycling and time spent on defrosting. Based on this I've adj the lock-out temp up to 35F in attempt to drop the number of defrost cycles. Could be even with the higher temp setting, total time and amount of aux heat could be less. So having the lock-out set to very low temps may not be the low cost solutions. Lot depends upon humidity during the winter months.

 

[techman]

I have a similar sheet that I have used for a number of years. It compares all of the common fuels.

paul

 

[LD1]

I have a similar sheet that I have used for a number of years. It compares all of the common fuels.

paul

I like it:thumbsup:

Allthough, A HP is constantally variable. You list the COP @ 2.2. That is probabally about what mine runs @ 35-40 degrees. But it is more around 3.5 when temps are near 50, and less than 2.2 when colder. That is the Idea behind my spreadsheet is to be able to calculate it at different temps in comparison.

And there are a few other "specific" questions I would like to ask you if ya dont mind?

First, you list the price ranges for NAT gas as 1.50-2.25/ccf. I personally dont know, we dont have gas in our area, but I had always heard it was between 0.90 and 1.10/ccf. I have no good sources for verifying, most people I know that have NG, have no clue:confused2: Could you shed some light?

Second, I think most propane furnaces are 90% or better eff. I could be wrong. Why did you go with 80%?

Third, I have always been told that burning wood is only 20-30% efficent. The rest goes up the chimney:confused2: That could skew them #'s a bit for the worse. Where did you get The 70% # at???

Not trying to discredit any of your info, just curious is all

 

[LD1]

Actually I just found this really cool link. It basically has everything your PDF does, only prices and efficiencies are editable:thumbsup: I wish I stumbled onto it sooner.

If it works...

http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/experts/heatcalc.xls

 

[techman]

I like it:thumbsup:

Allthough, A HP is constantally variable. You list the COP @ 2.2. That is probabally about what mine runs @ 35-40 degrees. But it is more around 3.5 when temps are near 50, and less than 2.2 when colder. That is the Idea behind my spreadsheet is to be able to calculate it at different temps in comparison.

And there are a few other "specific" questions I would like to ask you if ya dont mind?

First, you list the price ranges for NAT gas as 1.50-2.25/ccf. I personally dont know, we dont have gas in our area, but I had always heard it was between 0.90 and 1.10/ccf. I have no good sources for verifying, most people I know that have NG, have no clue:confused2: Could you shed some light?

Second, I think most propane furnaces are 90% or better eff. I could be wrong. Why did you go with 80%?

Third, I have always been told that burning wood is only 20-30% efficent. The rest goes up the chimney:confused2: That could skew them #'s a bit for the worse. Where did you get The 70% # at???

Not trying to discredit any of your info, just curious is all

Well the chart is actually an excel, which allows you to change all of the parameters. Heat pumps are one unit that can vary, so trying to pick an average is a guess. Also we have some guys that have the new, efficient wood stoves, which clain 70% Some of the range of costs are a year or two old, and will vary regionally. Also I try to use fully burdened costs, like on the NG, which includes all taxes, fees, etc. I made this originally to give to some co-workers to try to compare different fuels. In some cases some "low cost" fuels are actually not that much cheaper.

paul

 

[clemsonfor]

I like it:thumbsup:

Allthough, A HP is constantally variable. You list the COP @ 2.2. That is probabally about what mine runs @ 35-40 degrees. But it is more around 3.5 when temps are near 50, and less than 2.2 when colder. That is the Idea behind my spreadsheet is to be able to calculate it at different temps in comparison.

And there are a few other "specific" questions I would like to ask you if ya dont mind?

First, you list the price ranges for NAT gas as 1.50-2.25/ccf. I personally dont know, we dont have gas in our area, but I had always heard it was between 0.90 and 1.10/ccf. I have no good sources for verifying, most people I know that have NG, have no clue:confused2: Could you shed some light?

Second, I think most propane furnaces are 90% or better eff. I could be wrong. Why did you go with 80%?

Third, I have always been told that burning wood is only 20-30% efficent. The rest goes up the chimney:confused2: That could skew them #'s a bit for the worse. Where did you get The 70% # at???

Not trying to discredit any of your info, just curious is all

My new (well about 6 yrs old that i bought a yr ago) wood stove is a catalyst model. Im thinking the sticker on it puts it in the 60-70% effiency range. How do i know this, cause i can go to the stove store i bought it at and they put stickers on them telling you this, like your heat pump or washingmachine, showing you where it rates in the line up of stoves and its effiency. Also shows the carbon or something it puts out an hour? My stove is effecient, once the catalysts are engaged it reburns all the smoke like in your car catylist (how it does to the unburned fuel) and you get a ton of heat from that. This allows you to damp your fire way down yet still get no visible smoke out of the chimney. I have heard that the new EPA stoves are 30-35% more efficient than old stoves. Which if you heard there 30% you add the general rule of 30% more efficient to it and you get 60%? Just guessing.

 

[LD1]

My new (well about 6 yrs old that i bought a yr ago) wood stove is a catalyst model. Im thinking the sticker on it puts it in the 60-70% effiency range. How do i know this, cause i can go to the stove store i bought it at and they put stickers on them telling you this, like your heat pump or washingmachine, showing you where it rates in the line up of stoves and its effiency. Also shows the carbon or something it puts out an hour? My stove is effecient, once the catalysts are engaged it reburns all the smoke like in your car catylist (how it does to the unburned fuel) and you get a ton of heat from that. This allows you to damp your fire way down yet still get no visible smoke out of the chimney. I have heard that the new EPA stoves are 30-35% more efficient than old stoves. Which if you heard there 30% you add the general rule of 30% more efficient to it and you get 60%? Just guessing.

I guess that is possible with a catalyst stove.

All I know is that when they say wood ~22Mbtu/cord, that is TOTAL heat output as a reault of burning wood. ALOT of heat goes up the chimney:confused2:

Those pellet stoves are pretty effecient because if you ever feel the "chimney" pipe on them...they dont loose much heat that way.

I guess it is entirley possible that "old school" wood burners, like my barrel stove, or the cast-iron stoves, are closer to the 30%. But the catalyst models that re-burn the gasses, I can believe them to be closer to 60% eff

 

[EE_Bota]

Oops...Wrong thread. Sorry Guys...it took me a while to track this post down.
I deleted it now.

 

[dmccarty]

:laughing::laughing::laughing:

I think EE is trying to tell us something about heat pumps....

Just not sure what he is trying to say....



Our wood stove is 70% efficient whatever that means and it is not a catalyst stove. Certainly quite a bit of heat goes up the chimney but that heat might not be wasted. Our chimney is exposed a good six feet from the stove to the ceiling. That exposed chimney does help heat the house. And the attic and the outside. :laughing:

I overheard a conversation last night about HVAC systems. One guy had Goodwin and had no problems. They other guy had Trane and was constantly fixing it. We have Goodwin in the house and it has been fine except for a blown capacitor in the high heat last summer. The Rheem we had in the city was trouble free for almost 10 years.

Later,
Dan

 

[LD1]

I overheard a conversation last night about HVAC systems. One guy had Goodwin and had no problems. They other guy had Trane and was constantly fixing it. We have Goodwin in the house and it has been fine except for a blown capacitor in the high heat last summer. The Rheem we had in the city was trouble free for almost 10 years.

Later,
Dan

I can say that my rheem has been trouble free as well.

It was installed when the house was built in 1996. And I have owned since 2005. Nor sure if the prior owners have had any issues, but in my 6 years, I have had none. Which is supising since it is a 15 year old unit now:confused2:

 

[clemsonfor]

Oops...Wrong thread. Sorry Guys...it took me a while to track this post down.
I deleted it now.

WHAT?

What does this have to do with Heatpumps?

EDIT: From the time i brought the page up to read it, then quoted it EEbota had already edited it so my quote shows the Edit. But when i quoted it my screen had the whole Occupy riot timeline on it?

 

[clemsonfor]

:laughing::laughing::laughing:

I think EE is trying to tell us something about heat pumps....

Just not sure what he is trying to say....



Our wood stove is 70% efficient whatever that means and it is not a catalyst stove. Certainly quite a bit of heat goes up the chimney but that heat might not be wasted. Our chimney is exposed a good six feet from the stove to the ceiling. That exposed chimney does help heat the house. And the attic and the outside. :laughing:

I overheard a conversation last night about HVAC systems. One guy had Goodwin and had no problems. They other guy had Trane and was constantly fixing it. We have Goodwin in the house and it has been fine except for a blown capacitor in the high heat last summer. The Rheem we had in the city was trouble free for almost 10 years.

Later,
Dan

That sounds just like me. I have a Goodwin and no problems in 3 years but the neighbor and his Trane calls the guy every year since it was a few years old.

 

[EE_Bota]

:laughing::laughing::laughing:

I think EE is trying to tell us something about heat pumps....

Just not sure what he is trying to say....



Our wood stove is 70% efficient whatever that means and it is not a catalyst stove. Certainly quite a bit of heat goes up the chimney but that heat might not be wasted. Our chimney is exposed a good six feet from the stove to the ceiling. That exposed chimney does help heat the house. And the attic and the outside. :laughing:

I overheard a conversation last night about HVAC systems. One guy had Goodwin and had no problems. They other guy had Trane and was constantly fixing it. We have Goodwin in the house and it has been fine except for a blown capacitor in the high heat last summer. The Rheem we had in the city was trouble free for almost 10 years.

Later,
Dan

Sorry...I posted in the wrong thread..
For this thread..I am not sure what to make of the efficiencies of a wood stove, but I studied this hard just before last Christmas. I installed one of the new EPA rated stoves (used) last Christmas, and it does seem to be far more thrifty on the wood. I wish my stove pipe were exposed like yours, but it was not possible in my setup, which is right in front of my rock chimney.

My main reason to change anything was the fire hazard of the existing setup..an insert dumping right into a conventional chimney..no pipe. I think that was a chimney fire waiting to happen.

My pipe is insulated, and also within the chimney itself. One big advantage with the new stove vs the old insert is I can actually see the fire. Most of the heat for the first hour or more comes out through the glass, and it takes a long time for the soap stone to heat up, and then for my rock mantel to heat up too. But after that, even if the stove has been out for hours, it is still putting out heat.

I used to be quite concerned whether a stove could burn all night, and have enough coals to start a new fire the next morning, since I fall asleep quite early sometimes, and have little interest or time for starting a fire when I get up at 4:30 AM. This one can keep fire, only if plenty of ashes are left in there to shield the coals. But, anymore, I am not concerned with propagating the fire into the morning and next day, since I get plenty of heat from the soap stone and all the rock from the chimney.

Here is my stove with its stated efficiency claims. I and my best friend bought our stoves two weeks apart, off of Craigs list, and each of us paid $800, and we are both pretty darned pleased with them.

Stove Details | Hearthstone Stoves

If you do things like this with your a good friend, it can add a lot to life..you saw together, split together, etc, and that is always more fun than working alone.

 

[clemsonfor]

I can load my stove twice a day. It will easily have coals for 10-12 hours to restart a fire.

I have not put a liner in my existing chimney and will probly one day, but with this stove once burning and engaged there is no visible smoke out of the chimney no smoke = little to no creosote for chimney fire (catalyst stoves claim to reduce creosote by 90%). Sometimes before its fully heated the catalysts you see some smoke wifts but it may be moisture coming out of chimney? If the fire is really hot and you engage them and then damp down you will see no smoke all day long after the start fireing.