dodge man
Super Star Member
We have had that same problem twice in the 15 years we've lived in our house, and it was a bad or loose ground in the utilities meter box.
Help! Flickering lights/haunted house
- Thread starter gocards1177
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farmer2009
Elite Member
You said you had a GFCI to trip. Look on that circuit. I had this once. Turned out to be a loose neutral. We have one GFCI that covers both bathrooms (not the way I like it but a mobile home). The loose wire was in the other bathroom from the GFCI. Although it kept tripping.
Had a family member call a few weeks back when it got cold they had some lights but no hot water or electric furnace. Turns out the utility ran a direct burial cable 30 years ago and it finally burnt one leg into. Must have had a nick in it. Utility dug it up and fixed it but said if they couldn't find it it would require new service. Come to find out their lights had been dimming and flickering for a few months.
So could be either or neither. Good luck.
Had a family member call a few weeks back when it got cold they had some lights but no hot water or electric furnace. Turns out the utility ran a direct burial cable 30 years ago and it finally burnt one leg into. Must have had a nick in it. Utility dug it up and fixed it but said if they couldn't find it it would require new service. Come to find out their lights had been dimming and flickering for a few months.
So could be either or neither. Good luck.
OP
gocards1177
Gold Member
I understand the concept. Are yo saying it can't be the buried service cable?
OP
gocards1177
Gold Member
Ok duct tape removed! 
Tested the panel in several different ways. Across the service entrance cables I get 238. On the other side of the main breakers and across the main bus bars I get the same. I then use alligator clips to connect the meter to the bus bars and had my wife turn on the furnace, oven, and dryer. It went down to 235/236. Is this normal to drop a few volts?
We're getting ready to head to church and then out to the land for a bit, so I won't get to fiddle with this until late this afternoon. Would this experiment work?: set up the meter across one bus and neutral. Turn off all of the breakers and see if it goes to normal. If it does then keep turning on circuits until it changes. If turning them all off didn't fix it then it would have to be the buried cable/meter? And if turning them all off did fix it, it would have to be inside the house, and the circuit could be isolated.
Tested the panel in several different ways. Across the service entrance cables I get 238. On the other side of the main breakers and across the main bus bars I get the same. I then use alligator clips to connect the meter to the bus bars and had my wife turn on the furnace, oven, and dryer. It went down to 235/236. Is this normal to drop a few volts?
We're getting ready to head to church and then out to the land for a bit, so I won't get to fiddle with this until late this afternoon. Would this experiment work?: set up the meter across one bus and neutral. Turn off all of the breakers and see if it goes to normal. If it does then keep turning on circuits until it changes. If turning them all off didn't fix it then it would have to be the buried cable/meter? And if turning them all off did fix it, it would have to be inside the house, and the circuit could be isolated.
strum456
Platinum Member
Anything is possible. However, I would certainly rule out loose or corroded connections before I started digging up cable. If you have a broken neutral in your service cable, then yes, that would cause it. How would it have gotten broken? I would also rule out the power company's side before I spent much time on it. There is a very good chance that this is their problem.
Your house has two separate 120v main wires entering it (phase one and phase two). One goes down the left side of your box, the other goes down the right. These two circuits of 120vac are 180 degrees out of phase with one another. So, it is the DIFFERENCE between these two phases that makes 240. When measuring from neutral to one side, you should not get more than 120 or 125 max. If the connection to neutral is no longer adequate, you will start to read the difference to the other phase of ac, which can cause higher readings at a 120v outlet. The more unequal the load is between phase one and phase two, the wilder your readings will get (either lower or higher than 120v). What you might want to try is turning on some CHEAP 120v appliances, such as lights or an electric space heater on one side of the breaker box, and keep the load minimal on the other side. Then measure from each phase to neutral. Make sure not to have stereos, tvs, appliances, etc. connected. The over or under voltage can ruin them (I've seen it happen).
Measuring across the two phases will give you around 240 regardless of the neutral. Yes, it is normal to see a little voltage drop, if you start a large appliance.
OP
gocards1177
Gold Member
Didn't occur to me to stop using anything. It's been business as usual. When I get home ill disconnect and turn off as much as possible.
SPIKER
Elite Member
Once you see there are OK measurements (or bad ones) start turning on the equipment one at a time to see what might be causing it to isolate it from other devices.
I would suggest starting with the 240 stuff, turn off all of them (Well Pump, Stove, Hot Water or Base board heaters.) Then measure voltages on both lines and across lines to neutral & write them down.
Next turn on one at a time and turn ON the device, (Oven or run hot water etc.) and measure while the appliance is running.
Same then with the 120 volt stuff but I would bet it is a problem in a 240 device or one of the underground wires coming into your place.
If you see no voltage drop at the Meter Base, vs the Main Breaker inside (underground in between) with devices running the wire underground is OK, if there is a big difference then you know the problem is probably underground. With everything running one or two volt drop is normal but much more and lines or neutrals become suspect. Measure between both lines and neutral on ALL tests and record them.
If you have a clamp on amp probe that will help to see where/how much power is moving thru the wires so we can know if they are sized ok or if there could be corrosion in them.
Glad you removed the duct tape that stuff was probably very dry...
(Edit in: FYI Heating Elements are big resistors, a crack on one end will short out into the water and flow current more from one leg into the pipes and out to ground so less power is used on other leg as it must go thru the resistor of the broken heating element. Some times you can feel slight electrical current in hot water when it flows thru the pipes into the well or into a grounded drain etc.) Something cracks/shorts out the heating element out near the middle and the grounded frame carries some of the current unbalancing the leg loads. But if it is in the middle then the unbalance is very small as each leg has similar resistance to the break.
Mark
I would suggest starting with the 240 stuff, turn off all of them (Well Pump, Stove, Hot Water or Base board heaters.) Then measure voltages on both lines and across lines to neutral & write them down.
Next turn on one at a time and turn ON the device, (Oven or run hot water etc.) and measure while the appliance is running.
Same then with the 120 volt stuff but I would bet it is a problem in a 240 device or one of the underground wires coming into your place.
If you see no voltage drop at the Meter Base, vs the Main Breaker inside (underground in between) with devices running the wire underground is OK, if there is a big difference then you know the problem is probably underground. With everything running one or two volt drop is normal but much more and lines or neutrals become suspect. Measure between both lines and neutral on ALL tests and record them.
If you have a clamp on amp probe that will help to see where/how much power is moving thru the wires so we can know if they are sized ok or if there could be corrosion in them.
Glad you removed the duct tape that stuff was probably very dry...
(Edit in: FYI Heating Elements are big resistors, a crack on one end will short out into the water and flow current more from one leg into the pipes and out to ground so less power is used on other leg as it must go thru the resistor of the broken heating element. Some times you can feel slight electrical current in hot water when it flows thru the pipes into the well or into a grounded drain etc.) Something cracks/shorts out the heating element out near the middle and the grounded frame carries some of the current unbalancing the leg loads. But if it is in the middle then the unbalance is very small as each leg has similar resistance to the break.
Mark
Illini22
Gold Member
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When I was a troubleshooter (lineman) for the utility company we always put load on the "high side) of the (one phase at a time)customers meter cabinet. If the other phase spiked while the one we tested dropped, it was obviously a open nuetral. Their could be several reasons for that, bad URD cable, connection at pedestal or transformer, etc. If we saw no drop in voltage between phases it was usually on the customers side. Their was of course, some other more complicated rare examples that required more troubleshooting.
You need to put load on (microwave) each phase and test. Keep backing up from the main, to the meter, to the ped, risor pole, etc until you get balanced load, then You'll find your problem
You need to put load on (microwave) each phase and test. Keep backing up from the main, to the meter, to the ped, risor pole, etc until you get balanced load, then You'll find your problem
JPRambo
Platinum Member
The duct tape could have been put on by the original electrician. I would do this (or a piece of cardboard) if the panel was used for temporary power during construction of the home. Making up the circuit wires when the panel was "HOT" caused sparks to fly a couple of times before I started doing this.
At a home my parents owned a lightning bolt hit a tree in the back yard. The 'bolt' continued underground and hit the power company cable and burnt the cable apart underground. They replaced the cable and all was good.
At a home my parents owned a lightning bolt hit a tree in the back yard. The 'bolt' continued underground and hit the power company cable and burnt the cable apart underground. They replaced the cable and all was good.
TCJatko
Platinum Member
I'm guessing you've already done this, but if not tighten all the connections inside the service entrance. Some can work loose over the years due to heating/cooling of the joints.
