HELP! My Backhoe won't swing left!

   / HELP! My Backhoe won't swing left!
  • Thread Starter
#41  
My hat is off to him for taking his cylinders apart and having a look. Right or wrong, so far it is the only positive mechanical information that we have.

If not a solid stop, how about Hydraulic Shock? Given high RPM and a load in the bucket, could suddenly reversing the swing with the control levers create enough tensile force on that rod end to cause the failure?

And looking at the cylinder rod, we have to wonder what mods to piston and rod would make sense to increase the strength of the threaded portion? I'm sure your co-worker put some thought into that. What conclusions?

A shock-damping damping reservoir on a T in the pressure feed line would be another solution.

I will be fascinated to hear what you find in yours.

rScotty

Yeah, right now we have a few examples in the experiment, but only 1 actual data point. I'll become the 2nd when I have time to dig in.

My coworker felt the heat treatment was wrong on the shaft. He also felt the machining on the shaft left stress concentration areas as they left sharp corners rather than had radii. Since the Kubota shaft failed, he didn't want to give Kubota the ~$450 they wanted for a new shaft. He went to a local shop that fabricates cylinders and they cut off the pin end of the shaft and welded it to a new shaft they fabricated.

Momentum and sudden stopping could be the cause. My coworker can be an animal on the controls from the stories I've heard. On the other hand, I'm generally gentle, but I do use my backhoe to move some pretty large logs around during firewood operations. Maybe I stopped the controls at some point and it let loose. We're really just theorizing until I can get in there.

I need to look at the physical hoses/fittings to see if I can easily just rig up one cylinder at a time.

ac
 
   / HELP! My Backhoe won't swing left! #42  
The pipe plugs looked like tapered NPT pipe plugs, one 3/8 and two 1/2? Checked the thread pitch. Male to male nipples installed the same into the line distribution blocks. 1/2 pipe threads of BSPT and NPT are so similar that they fool experts. I知 no expert. Hope I didn稚 mess up. No leaks yet.

Have encountered BSPT on other hydraulic fittings and even BSPT on hydraulic grease fittings on my other Kubota tractors. Been careful not to cross thread.

As you know - but for those who don't.... Many Asian manufacturers who use the metric standard for most every nut, bolt, and measurement on their tractors will use the British tapered pipe thread - called BSPT, for all their tapered pipe thread. You see this a lot especially where tapered pipe threads are factory cut into a cast iron motor or transmission block.
For cars, tractors, and industrials mfg. in Japan the practice is "almost" 100%.
You'll also see this BSPT thread in water jackets and oil fittings in otherwise metric block castings.
Matching threads is one of the hassles when putting in a block heater or piping oil/water to analogue gauge sets.

But not always.... There is no real standard practice so you have to check. On my M59 the tapered pipe nipples that hold the hydraulic oil filters into the bottom of the cast iron transmission housing appears to be NPT X NPT. That seemed so odd to me that I took them out to compare. Well, it was hard to decide. They weren't fitted well at the factory and had come loose. But I'd have to call them both NPT X NPT.

Since common hydraulic, water, and fluids plumbing in the US uses the very similar NPT threads, if we are doing mods them we like to do a deliberate switch from a from BSPT to the standard NPT thread. Easy way to do this is to start with an BSPT X NPT adapter nipple or similar male/female adapter and then after that we can stay with our normal NPT fittings. McMaster-Carr has the adapters online, but you can often find them at car parts or hardware stores if you ask.

The threads are similar enough that you can force fit an NPT-M plug into a BSPT-F fitting. Usually it's hard to do, it won't go in very far, and will require a lot of torque to advance the threads after the first few turns. I know because I've not only seen it done, plus I'm sure I did it myself as a young mechanic before I realized the difference.

Sometimes this cross thread will leak, but just often enough they won't. If suspect you've done that and it doesn't leak, then my advice is don't remove it. Crossing the thread types does tend to ruin the block threads enough to make replacement somewhat chancy.

Now that I know the difference, I keep a handful of sizes of NPT X BSPT nipples & Male/Female adapters in the tool box to use for thread ID. The best way I know to do the thread ID is by seeing how well the threads will mate just by hand fitting. The difference is sometimes too small for me to measure any other way.
As you say, sometimes it's difficult to decide just what threat it is that you are dealing with.

Hydraulic grease fitting threads are even more difficult to decipher. I've still not got those figured out. Some are tapered, others are are parallel threads but in several diff. types.
rScotty
 
   / HELP! My Backhoe won't swing left! #43  
SNIP
Momentum and sudden stopping could be the cause.
SNIP
I need to look at the physical hoses/fittings to see if I can easily just rig up one cylinder at a time.
ac

After an evening to think it through.... Now that we are beginning to understand at least one of the modes of failure, can you think of any test situation where single swing cylinder operation would fail to find a disconnected piston if that is what failed? How about false positives?

I'll admit to feeling at least a little bit dumb for not thinking of that single cylinder test years ago.....

As to causes of failure, the most obvious source of high momentum transfer would be a lateral motion of the piston on the shaft. So I'd look at how well the well the piston is locked to the shaft to the cylinder. That means taking a close look at just how that threaded nut secures the piston - are there special washers or damping springs?

Just as important is how the nut is locked onto the shaft treads. That nut can't be allowed to loosen or the system will certainly fail. That's obvious to any designer. So what is there in this design that keeps that nut from turning? And did it do the job?

If I didn't see a design that I liked, I'd do some research on common practice. JD, Case, and Cat are all companies that use a similar dual swing cylinder setup on their backhoes. It would be worth taking a look at how they built their swing cylinders.
rScotty
 
   / HELP! My Backhoe won't swing left! #44  
As you know - but for those who don't.... Many Asian manufacturers who use the metric standard for most every nut, bolt, and measurement on their tractors will use the British tapered pipe thread - called BSPT, for all their tapered pipe thread. You see this a lot especially where tapered pipe threads are factory cut into a cast iron motor or transmission block.
For cars, tractors, and industrials mfg. in Japan the practice is "almost" 100%.
You'll also see this BSPT thread in water jackets and oil fittings in otherwise metric block castings.
Matching threads is one of the hassles when putting in a block heater or piping oil/water to analogue gauge sets.

But not always.... There is no real standard practice so you have to check. On my M59 the tapered pipe nipples that hold the hydraulic oil filters into the bottom of the cast iron transmission housing appears to be NPT X NPT. That seemed so odd to me that I took them out to compare. Well, it was hard to decide. They weren't fitted well at the factory and had come loose. But I'd have to call them both NPT X NPT.

Since common hydraulic, water, and fluids plumbing in the US uses the very similar NPT threads, if we are doing mods them we like to do a deliberate switch from a from BSPT to the standard NPT thread. Easy way to do this is to start with an BSPT X NPT adapter nipple or similar male/female adapter and then after that we can stay with our normal NPT fittings. McMaster-Carr has the adapters online, but you can often find them at car parts or hardware stores if you ask.

The threads are similar enough that you can force fit an NPT-M plug into a BSPT-F fitting. Usually it's hard to do, it won't go in very far, and will require a lot of torque to advance the threads after the first few turns. I know because I've not only seen it done, plus I'm sure I did it myself as a young mechanic before I realized the difference.

Sometimes this cross thread will leak, but just often enough they won't. If suspect you've done that and it doesn't leak, then my advice is don't remove it. Crossing the thread types does tend to ruin the block threads enough to make replacement somewhat chancy.

Now that I know the difference, I keep a handful of sizes of NPT X BSPT nipples & Male/Female adapters in the tool box to use for thread ID. The best way I know to do the thread ID is by seeing how well the threads will mate just by hand fitting. The difference is sometimes too small for me to measure any other way.
As you say, sometimes it's difficult to decide just what threat it is that you are dealing with.

Hydraulic grease fitting threads are even more difficult to decipher. I've still not got those figured out. Some are tapered, others are are parallel threads but in several diff. types.
rScotty

One of the many reasons I don’t like tapered pipe thread hydraulic connections. As you move to higher pressure precision hydraulic systems there are better choices. Good advise on having some nipple adapters on hand to test threads.

Interesting discussion on the broken rod swing cylinder. I have experience that problem of loss to the left swing once. With two cylinders used for swing and afterwards have plenty of power to swing loaded buckets or scoot the back of the tractor around.
I once had loss of boom pressure down. Single cylinder. I can’t understand if rod was broken it could return to normal function?
No denying the broken rod would cause a problem but to ever return to normal function while broken exceeds my limited understanding. Stump digging is some of harshest uses of a backhoe. I’ll guess I’ll find out soon enough. Maybe the design engineering didn’t think about the massive loads we could grasp with thumbs and swing with our hoes? Mechanical evolution in progress. I’m relying on you smarter people to figure this out.

Air in a hydraulic system can cause freaky problems particularly with valves. Any wet spot or drip is an entry point for air. I don’t have the tooling to be able to check tightness on every fitting but a place I would start if the problem persists.
 
   / HELP! My Backhoe won't swing left!
  • Thread Starter
#45  
After an evening to think it through.... Now that we are beginning to understand at least one of the modes of failure, can you think of any test situation where single swing cylinder operation would fail to find a disconnected piston if that is what failed? How about false positives?

I'll admit to feeling at least a little bit dumb for not thinking of that single cylinder test years ago.....

As to causes of failure, the most obvious source of high momentum transfer would be a lateral motion of the piston on the shaft. So I'd look at how well the well the piston is locked to the shaft to the cylinder. That means taking a close look at just how that threaded nut secures the piston - are there special washers or damping springs?

Just as important is how the nut is locked onto the shaft treads. That nut can't be allowed to loosen or the system will certainly fail. That's obvious to any designer. So what is there in this design that keeps that nut from turning? And did it do the job?

If I didn't see a design that I liked, I'd do some research on common practice. JD, Case, and Cat are all companies that use a similar dual swing cylinder setup on their backhoes. It would be worth taking a look at how they built their swing cylinders.
rScotty

"one of the modes of failure"...so far it's the ONLY mode of failure. No one else has any actual proof of any other mode of failure. There isn't even conjecture at this point. I, like most people, got it to work again with the gravity swing and figured "eh, must be 'fixed'". Well...it's probably NOT actually FIXED.

I think if you hooked up just the left cylinder and the swing worked in both directions, but then hooked up the right cylinder and it didn't...you'd have your solution.

The piston bolts to the shaft. It's clear in the parts diagram. See attached.

Good question! If I get inside a cylinder I'll be looking closely for evidence of locking compound.

I'm pretty sure at this point everyone uses a similar design.
 

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   / HELP! My Backhoe won't swing left! #46  
Had 6” rain this month has required some driveway maintenance. Taking the backhoe off the M59 to switch back to 3pt mode and land leveler. While disconnecting the backhoe noted loss of down boom power. It would drop fine, up fine but no pressure or force down. Took me a while to figure out as I was trying to remove the two attachment pins. Tried cycling and all other functions worked. Seems like I got flow. Did this once before. Once it returned the first time it happily dug several stumps out and moved trees. About 15 gallons of fuel worth.
Anyway, trying to use the bucket curl to remove the pins was testing my patience. Then the boom power down came back. ?!?! Then easy to remove the pins.

I have lost left swing once and boom down twice in a span of a couple of months. Functions have come back after a few minutes. Not sure anything I have done to help them return. Valves or reliefs sticking?

The seizing of space shuttle articulated arm from loss of lubricant in the early missions was solved by a local chemist. Additive to cause lubricants to be attractive to metal in the vacuum of space works good down here too. Might need to spike the HST fluid.
 
   / HELP! My Backhoe won't swing left!
  • Thread Starter
#47  
Had 6 rain this month has required some driveway maintenance. Taking the backhoe off the M59 to switch back to 3pt mode and land leveler. While disconnecting the backhoe noted loss of down boom power. It would drop fine, up fine but no pressure or force down. Took me a while to figure out as I was trying to remove the two attachment pins. Tried cycling and all other functions worked. Seems like I got flow. Did this once before. Once it returned the first time it happily dug several stumps out and moved trees. About 15 gallons of fuel worth.
Anyway, trying to use the bucket curl to remove the pins was testing my patience. Then the boom power down came back. ?!?! Then easy to remove the pins.

I have lost left swing once and boom down twice in a span of a couple of months. Functions have come back after a few minutes. Not sure anything I have done to help them return. Valves or reliefs sticking?

The seizing of space shuttle articulated arm from loss of lubricant in the early missions was solved by a local chemist. Additive to cause lubricants to be attractive to metal in the vacuum of space works good down here too. Might need to spike the HST fluid.

What would you spike the HST fluid with? Any links to a product?

ac
 
   / HELP! My Backhoe won't swing left! #48  
Frustrated on an intermittent hydraulic problem on an otherwise great piece of equipment. Potential causes and remedies are elusive. I’m no expert that’s why I’m here hopefully finding information on how to understand and repair/prevent.

The fellow that invented the oil additive work at government facility. Turned down large $$ to sell his patent and tried to sell it on his own as afc1000 oil additive for several years before giving up. Interesting and compelling friction test with a bearing with your oil and your oil with additive. Got a couple of gallons to experiment with. Most applications I couldn’t tell much difference. Cold start wear reduction and longer service life are hard to measure. Did lower bush hog gearbox temperature significantly. Did increase power to a high hour ford backhoe and reduce cold start warmup after sitting for weeks to months.

My experience with the Kubota backhoe hydraulic problem that it has happened after sitting for days.
Once it goes away it doesn’t come back if you are operating regularly. Lubrication problem?? Only guessing.
 
   / HELP! My Backhoe won't swing left!
  • Thread Starter
#49  
Still no resolution. Got caught up with life and haven't had a chance to mess with it. Just checked now, still no power swing to the left.

Anyone come up with any new theories before I lay into this thing?
 
   / HELP! My Backhoe won't swing left!
  • Thread Starter
#50  
I got a chance to play with this. I just swapped the swing hoses from their control valve onto the boom control valve and vice versa. The problem moved to the boom! I had no power for boom down!

So now the problem is isolated to the control valve or the actual pump? Steering seems fine, and I have power in 1 direction, so I'm assuming the pump and main relief is ok. So I think that means the actual control valve is the issue???

ac
 
 
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