Help with roundup mixing.

[ponytug]

Thank you Peter, I do have hard water but there is a tap outside I can get soft water.

You are welcome. If you have hard water, I would bet that the lack of efficacy was probably that. You can add AMS to soft water as well as it does improve the efficacy.

All the best,

Peter

 

[Cougsfan]

What is the school of thought regarding spraying herbicide such as glyphosate early in the morning when dew is present on the target species? Seems like I read some time ago that the dew will dilute the chemical and reduce the effectiveness.

I don't think that dew affects the application of herbicides much. Rain that washes the herbicide off the plant immediately after spraying will hurt, but dew will usually just evaporate, leaving the herbicide in place. Spraying herbicides early in the morning when it is cool is actually better as less herbicide will evaporate and drift, and more will be absorbed by the plant. That is especially important with dicamba which is prone to drifting.

Sounds like the op expects Glysophate to start killing the plant immediately. It doesn't. As previously mentioned, it takes a week for it to show any effects and two weeks to show a lot of effect. If you want immediate results add an equal amount of 2-4d with your glysophate and the broadleafs will die quicker (it is kind of waste to apply the double mixture though.) I mix 2.5 oz per gallon of any generic 41% glysophate in water with 1 oz. of surfactant (even if it supposedly comes with a surfactant pre-added, they are usually quite inadequate) and have excellent results on most every weed. People underestimate the need for surfactant, especially later in the year when the weeds are more mature and waxy. It will not only save a lot of expense in herbicides, it will also significantly increase the effectiveness of any herbicide.

One trick I do is I add a few drops of blue food coloring to any non-selective weed killer I mix (glysophate), and red food coloring to selective herbicides (2-4d, dicamba, milestone, etc) so I won't accidentally confuse what is in the sprayer and use the wrong stuff in the right place.

Dishwashing soap (Joy, Dawn, etc) will work as a surfactant if you have nothing else, but a commercial surfactant is considerably more effective.

 

[ultrarunner]

I always mix to label and have found two additions that work for me.

First mentioned already is sufficant... I bought a bottle years ago and still have some...

Second is I never use cold water... always very warm... a biologist gave me the tip.

Ambient temp and growth stage also important...

 

[Cougsfan]

You are right, warm water will definitely increase the absorption of herbicide but it will also increase the potential for herbicide drift to neighboring plants that aren't a target, so be careful. Another trick when spraying around flowers and shrubs is to cover the flower or shrub with a bucket, blanket, or whatever before you spray herbicides in close proximity to it.

 

[dodge man]

Just to clarify my original post what alerted me to something being wrong was the fact the concentrate of roundup I mix myself wasn‘t working near as well as the ready to spray roundup. After doing a little more reading I’m pretty sure my hard water is the problem. I’ve been spraying roundup for a lot of years, not as a farmer but homeowner so I know what to expect.

 

[Complete Turf Care]

I have been a certified commercial applicator for about 40 years. I have sold (to farmers) and applied thousands of gallons of glyphosate and I still use it on a regular basis as a commercial applicator.

Several things I have learned with glyphosate are:
1. glyphosate is not very good on woody plants such as poison ivy, honeysuckle, trees and brush. Tryclopyr is better on this type of plant.
2. Glyphosate is 100% neutralized the instant it touches soil. This soil can be dust on the leaves of the target plants, or dirty water used to mix.
3. Glyphosate has 0 residual activity because it is neutralized instantly when it touches soil.
4. I use 2 oz. per gallon of the original formulation. (41% glyphosate)
5. I will cut that down a bit when I use a stronger concentration.
6. I do not add surfactant if it is already in the formulation, unless I am tank mixing with other products that do require surfactant.
7. The time of day for application does not affect the activity. Rainfall immediately after application will reduce activity. Rainfall 2-3 hours after application will not significantly reduce activity.
8. Young, fast growing plants are easier to kill.

 

[jaxs]

I have been a certified commercial applicator for about 40 years. I have sold (to farmers) and applied thousands of gallons of glyphosate and I still use it on a regular basis as a commercial applicator.

Several things I have learned with glyphosate are:
1. glyphosate is not very good on woody plants such as poison ivy, honeysuckle, trees and brush. Tryclopyr is better on this type of plant.
2. Glyphosate is 100% neutralized the instant it touches soil. This soil can be dust on the leaves of the target plants, or dirty water used to mix.
3. Glyphosate has 0 residual activity because it is neutralized instantly when it touches soil.
4. I use 2 oz. per gallon of the original formulation. (41% glyphosate)
5. I will cut that down a bit when I use a stronger concentration.
6. I do not add surfactant if it is already in the formulation, unless I am tank mixing with other products that do require surfactant.
7. The time of day for application does not affect the activity. Rainfall immediately after application will reduce activity. Rainfall 2-3 hours after application will not significantly reduce activity.
8. Young, fast growing plants are easier to kill.

Thank you for posting what experience has taught you,there is no better substitute.

 

[npalen]

Just to clarify my original post what alerted me to something being wrong was the fact the concentrate of roundup I mix myself wasn‘t working near as well as the ready to spray roundup. After doing a little more reading I’m pretty sure my hard water is the problem. I’ve been spraying roundup for a lot of years, not as a farmer but homeowner so I know what to expect.

The hard water issue is interesting. Sounds like I need to try some RO (Reverse Osmosis) filtered water. It does make me wonder, however, how large scale applicators deal with hard water.

 

[duffer]

The hard water issue is interesting. Sounds like I need to try some RO (Reverse Osmosis) filtered water. It does make me wonder, however, how large scale applicators deal with hard water.

The farmers use AMS added to the tank to soften the water. They also use room temp water as they normally have it stored in a large tank outside, before using it in their sprayers. It's warmer than us guys who pull it right out of the ground.

 

[old and tired]

I didn't read all responses, sorry if this was already said... Plants need to be actively growing to be able to absorb RoundUp. As for how rain-fast it is, I've had great results after a 30 minute drying time, I think it waters it down into the roots faster. You would have had better results if you watered the weeds first.

Also, you want a slow kill with RoundUp, you want it to reach all parts of the plant (mainly roots) before it does it's thing. Kill it too fast and the weed will just sprout back from the roots that didn't get RoundUp trans-located to. DON'T soak the leaf surface, a light mist is all you need (if the plant is growing). Middle of the summer, hot and dry, you are wasting chemicals.

If you spray under shallow rooted plants like dogwood trees, you can kill it if it gets watered down in the root zone. As for it killing everything, there's about 48 weeds that are resistant to RoundUp.

You want quick death, Paraquat is great (not for home owners). We use about $8k worth of Liberty herbicide at $95/gallon on our research farm. That kills the weeds that RoundUp can't kill.

 

[ultrarunner]

Does seem a warm sunny day after a Spring Rain is ideal...

 

[gstrom99]

I recently tried 5% vinegar, salt and a bit of soap mix and sprayed my whole driveway. It killed the grass and weeds within a day, they all turned brown and wilted, you could see the leaves burnt where the mixture had hit them. This was a couple weeks ago, I noticed that there was green starting to show about a week after so I sprayed it again which produced the same result.
This morning, roughly three weeks after the initial spray I just noticed, green starting again so maybe there's no residual action in the vinegar/salt solution neither.
It is better than nothing and a far sight cheaper than Roundup as a 4L bottle of vinegar is under CAN2$ and the salt is under a buck not to mention it's probably a bit safer too. I intend to spray it a few more times to see if it eventually will last.....................Mike

It irritates me that the term "Roundup" has become just like "Kleenex". The patent has expired. I don't buy the name brand stuff...

I just sprayed my drive yesterday with glyphosate. I'm down to about 1/3 of the 2 gallon jug (41% I think) and was watching videos of the vinegar/salt/dish soap mix alternative. Looks interesting and I may try it. Gly has no residual either, so I spray every month or two.

 

[ultrarunner]

My go-to for along time was Ortho Triox as one application at the right time had me covered... unlike Roundup that requires several

 

[2manyrocks]

Is it really cost effective when repeat applications are required?

I found that Ortho Brush B Gon was very effective on poison ivy. Only needed to lightly mist the leaves to kill it in one application. The active ingredient is Triclopyr.

 

[Alan W.]

Never knew about the hard water issues.
Learn something new everyday.

 

[bcs001]

My Go-TO-KILL-ANYTHING formula is 4 oz./gallon of Tractor Supply FarmWorks 53.8% Glyphosate and 1.5 oz./gallon Remedy Ultra. This combination takes care of just about anything on my private property in National forest.

 

[dodge man]

Buried somewhere in the detailed label are instructions on water quality. It does make a difference.

If you have hard water, make sure that you add a water conditioner like ammonium sulfate (IIRC, it is 1.7lbs/gal, and get it fully dissolved in the water before adding glyphosate.). The ammonium sulfate helps keep the glyphosate from being inactivated by the calcium in the hard water, and the ammonium ions make glyphosate more effective, so it is a two for one. For an oily leaf plant like poison ivy, I would certainly use a surfactant.

Do You Need Ammonium Sulfate In Your Glyphosate Spray Mix?

The answer to this simple question could improve your crop performance and make (or save) you some money.

www.farmprogress.com

All the best,

Peter

How sure are you do the 1.7 lbs/gal for the ammonium sulfate? That sounds like too much.

 

[ponytug]

How sure are you do the 1.7 lbs/gal for the ammonium sulfate? That sounds like too much.

Actually, pretty sure. I found that it even helped our softened water due to the residual carbonate ions in our softened water. (Water softeners only remove significant amounts of calcium and magnesium.) All of the other ions come along for the ride and can cause issues with glyphosate absorption.

AMS works two ways; one by making the glyphosate more absorbable by plants by masking the calcium and magnesium ions that tend to make the roundup insoluble and therefore unavailable to the plants, and two, by providing a burst of available nitrogen that encourages rapid leaf growth.

Some sites allow up to half of that, but if you look at the original papers, the higher dose is what is most effective. Harder water benefits from the higher dosing more than water that is more pure. Again, given that you are having issues, I would start at the 1.7lbs/gallon of final mix, and once you have baseline effectiveness, you could titrate it back down, if you want. For me, my time is valuable enough that I don't like to respray, so I mix at the higher level. AMS is cheap.

To mix: Add most of the water first, then add the ammonium sulfate, mix, and when the ammonium sulfate is fully dissolved, add the glyphosate.

You can read more here;

Glyphosate Use for Optimum Field Performance

Glyphosate is one of the most widely used herbicides in the North America. The widespread use of glyphosate is due in part to its very broad weed spectrum and high efficacy. Additionally, glyphosate-resistant crops allow the in-crop use of the herbicide without the risk of crop injury. This Crop...

www.pioneer.com

Select and handle ammonium sulfate products properly when preparing glyphosate spray mixes

Reports from farmers indicate potential troubles with plugged sprayer screens.

www.canr.msu.edu

13 Tips To Improve Glyphosate Performance

Jeff Stachler, NDSU and U of M weed specialist, says you can get better weed control by following these steps.

www.farmprogress.com

There is a web calculator, if you want to plug in your specific water quality values to get the minimum ammonium sulfate level.

Ammonium Sulfate as a Water Conditioner to Improve Glyphosate Efficacy | Wheat & Small Grains | Washington State University

Water is a universal solvent that serves as the primary carrier for pesticide applications. The quality of the water used as a carrier can have a large influence on the performance of herbicides such as…

smallgrains.wsu.edu

I couldn't get the calculator to work for me, but perhaps it works for you.

One note: glyphosate works by preventing water absorption in the roots, so leaves have to absorb the glyphosate, the glyphosate has to get moved to the roots, and then there needs to be enough water demand (heat, rapid growth, etc.) to dehydrate the plant to kill it. No absorption, no heat, no growth, or lots of rain after the application and it won't work well. Adding surfactant really helps cut through the leaf oils for good absorption for oily leaves like poison ivy, poison oak, etc.

All the best,

Peter

 

[dodge man]

Ok thanks. We have a water softener that I will use from now on. I’ve also heard it not 100% soft water also, this is from reading on water spotting on cars. I’ll probably try a level lower than 1.7 lb per gallon, maybe half that to start out.

 

[Larry Caldwell]

You are right, warm water will definitely increase the absorption of herbicide but it will also increase the potential for herbicide drift to neighboring plants that aren't a target, so be careful. Another trick when spraying around flowers and shrubs is to cover the flower or shrub with a bucket, blanket, or whatever before you spray herbicides in close proximity to it.

A piece of 8" stove pipe will protect small shrubs and trees from overspray. Even a hunk of cardboard will protect plants you don't want to spray, though you need three hands, one for the wand, one for the sprayer, and one for the cardboard.