HF mower?

[sweettractors]

If they're really that worried about those they leave behind, they would be better off to buy the cheap equipment and spend the difference on some term or whole life insurance. That will provide their widow with a lot more money than the sale of a brand name rotary cutter vs. china made equipment.

I would say that purchasing brand name equipment strictly for the resale value in the event of one's untimely demise is suspect at best. But, if it helps the buyer feel better about their choice of equipment (potentially spending more money for similar equipment), then more power to them.

It does not come into play as much on the lower price implements as it does on a high ticket item. Try to explain to one of these customers why he should buy a Zetor tractor and not a John Deere for $2000-$3000 more money (all features being equal), FWIW, I have sold well over 10,000 pieces of equipment and never lost money on any of them. Good equipment will hold its value over time. Ken Sweet

 

[rtimgray]

FWIW, I have sold well over 10,000 pieces of equipment and never lost money on any of them. Good equipment will hold its value over time. Ken Sweet

Does that number include the 15 chinese tractors that you had or the greys you used to sell?

I have absolutely no argument whatsoever that better known brands will hold their value for resale much better than the store-brand Chinese equivalent. But if the choice is between a used brand name item (as is, where is, no warranty, no recourse) or a new, under warranty store-brand item, the decision as to which item is the better value may not be so clear.

As a side note, I know why you have stated why you gave up on the Chinese tractors; why did you drop the greys?

Good luck and take care.

 

[Argosy]

seals are a non issue.. ID, OD and thickness.. maybee lip style.. single or double. that's what you need to know to repalce just about ANY seal from a real parts shop.

matched belt sets? no problem. napa and car quest can order those.. by the centimeter if i recall correctly.

soundguy

Not disagreeing with the ability to order either, but do disagree with your statement the seals are a non issue. How many people will be able to accurately measure ID, OD and depth to get the seal? A couple of thousandths of an inch is the difference between a seal and a mini frisbee, and the search will begin again. What do you do if the seal has worn a groove in the shaft, there is no parts breakdown for the gear box?

Why drive something as big as a 5 ft. mower with v belts? It will take a fair amount of power, to have to change them in sets is the cheap way out for the manufacturer. With no tensioners you're going to have to unbolt covers just to check belt tension, something that should be done at least a few times a season considering the belts are likely running close to maximum ratings.

What about the gear box, I would bet the ring gear (as it does look like a stamped rear cover), and maybe pinion gear shafts are only supported on one end. What stops deflection under heavy loads?

You've got to look at the total cost over the life of the piece of equipment, not just the initial purchase price. Frequency of breakdown is important. I was pointing out what I saw as deficiencies that make it cheap to manufacture but expensive (and time consuming) to maintain. The OP wanted to check it out, I gave him some things to look for. Do with them as you wish.

 

[sweettractors]

Does that number include the 15 Chinese tractors that you had or the greys you used to sell?

I have absolutely no argument whatsoever that better known brands will hold their value for resale much better than the store-brand Chinese equivalent. But if the choice is between a used brand name item (as is, where is, no warranty, no recourse) or a new, under warranty store-brand item, the decision as to which item is the better value may not be so clear.

As a side note, I know why you have stated why you gave up on the Chinese tractors; why did you drop the greys?

Good luck and take care.

Actually we made a good profit on the 15 Chinese tractors and the hundreds of Greys. I stopped because of the embarrassment I felt from having too much warranty work on the Chinese and a difficult parts situation for the Greys. I think the parts availability may be getting better on the Greys in todays marketplace. It is good to see TBN advertisers that are taking care of that problem Ken Sweet

 

[rtimgray]

So Ken is proof that you can make money on no-name chinese equipment or grey market stuff - you just have to be at the top of the food chain, so to speak. Ken - do you guys provide any parts support to your customers that bought Chinese or grey tractors? This is obviously off topic and I apologize if I'm digressing the thread.

I also feel like it seems as though I'm picking on Ken and I promise that is not my intention. In my observation, Ken provides a wealth of knowledge in general and (perhaps more importantly) a dealers perspective on many issues. There is absolutely nothing wrong with making a profit on an item - especially if you are a dealer. I want my dealers to make money, because I want them to be in business years down the road so that I can buy a gearbox for my name brand finish mower!

Sincerely, I mean no disrespect, and I've re-worded this post about a dozen times so as to try not to come across like a jerk. I hope that I've been at least somewhat effective.

 

[sweettractors]

So Ken is proof that you can make money on no-name chinese equipment or grey market stuff - you just have to be at the top of the food chain, so to speak. Ken - do you guys provide any parts support to your customers that bought Chinese or grey tractors? This is obviously off topic and I apologize if I'm digressing the thread.

I also feel like it seems as though I'm picking on Ken and I promise that is not my intention. In my observation, Ken provides a wealth of knowledge in general and (perhaps more importantly) a dealers perspective on many issues. There is absolutely nothing wrong with making a profit on an item - especially if you are a dealer. I want my dealers to make money, because I want them to be in business years down the road so that I can buy a gearbox for my name brand finish mower!

Sincerely, I mean no disrespect, and I've re-worded this post about a dozen times so as to try not to come across like a jerk. I hope that I've been at least somewhat effective.

We do not stock support for the Greys or Chinese sold 10 yrs ago. We do assist old customers and people that just call in with finding parts. Usually they are referred to a TBN sponsor for parts. Ken Sweet

 

[rtimgray]

Good job, Ken - I know that you guys take care of your customers.

 

[John47]

One of the big problems today is a lot of equipment is made all over the place, so how much of US brands are made here stateside and how many of the components are made elsewhere??
China isn't known for high quality metallurgy, their cast iron is of poor quality, their steel also of low quality.
I often wonder how their military fairs with inferior made boots, steel, electronics.
I have this vision of a General saying fire! The squaddie presses the button and nothing happens, or worse, a nuclear armed missile "comes home" on the general... LOL

 

[Soundguy]

But I will agree that the likelihood of a used mower crapping out that quick would be low, but you never know, that might be why it is for sale. The gearbox may be full off grease so it doesn't make too much noise - right up till it blows up. I think it boils down (like many other things) to personal preference, risk tolerance, and economics.

!

grease and sawdust. anyone remember that trick for rear ends?

soundguy

 

[Soundguy]

Ok.. I give in. if the buyer is so inept that he can't read a mic, caliper or depth gauge.. you are 100% correct. he should not buy any economy stuff.. or actually.. he shouldn't own any tools and work on anything either...

od is easy. it's the space the seal presses into. id is easy.. it's the shaft diameter. if the shaft is worn where the seal rides.. sleave it.. none of this is brain surgery / new technology...

I deal with antique equipment. i've seen mowers that use a TIRE to transmit power from a shaft to the mower.. vbelts sound GOOD to me

as for the stamped cover and whether or not the gearset is supported on 1 or 2 sides.. that WOULD be a bit of info I'd like to see.. along with the front bearing surface, if it was a steel race or machined into the housing.

if machined in.. I'd pass... if not supported on both sides.. I'd likely pass too.

just because it is a stamped cover does not mean there is not a locating fixture on the backside of the plate with a bushing (yuck! ) or beairng in there. as you point out. I'd like to see the breakdown though

soundguy

Not disagreeing with the ability to order either, but do disagree with your statement the seals are a non issue. How many people will be able to accurately measure ID, OD and depth to get the seal? A couple of thousandths of an inch is the difference between a seal and a mini frisbee, and the search will begin again. What do you do if the seal has worn a groove in the shaft, there is no parts breakdown for the gear box?

Why drive something as big as a 5 ft. mower with v belts? It will take a fair amount of power, to have to change them in sets is the cheap way out for the manufacturer. With no tensioners you're going to have to unbolt covers just to check belt tension, something that should be done at least a few times a season considering the belts are likely running close to maximum ratings.

What about the gear box, I would bet the ring gear (as it does look like a stamped rear cover), and maybe pinion gear shafts are only supported on one end. What stops deflection under heavy loads?

You've got to look at the total cost over the life of the piece of equipment, not just the initial purchase price. Frequency of breakdown is important. I was pointing out what I saw as deficiencies that make it cheap to manufacture but expensive (and time consuming) to maintain. The OP wanted to check it out, I gave him some things to look for. Do with them as you wish.

 

[jake98]

Just because they're selling it at $265 doesn't mean anything about the production cost. They may be dumping them for lots of reasons. If you get a good one at an auction for $50 it doesn't represent much either.

 

[Dargo]

if machined in.. I'd pass... if not supported on both sides.. I'd likely pass too.

Which process would be the absolute cheapest in production? That should give you about a 99% accurate response to your questions.

 

[Dargo]

Just because they're selling it at $265 doesn't mean anything about the production cost.

Really?! I suppose all those professors in all the years I took economics classes are all wrong and I must just be just plain lucky with my business models in creating the businesses I've created.

I have to say that I find the odds of this manufacturer selling under cost to put the next lowest manufacturer out of business rather slim since the next lowest manufacturer is possibly the same plant or one right down the road owned by the same Chinese corporation. Sorry, but prices are set due to specific criteria, they are not set 'just because'.

 

[rtimgray]

I would bet what Jake meant is that there is a chance that the units may be being sold for less than normal profit or for no profit at all. There are times that it is better for a manufacturer to get "something" out of goods than nothing at all.

Example: I work for a food manufacturing company that private labels retail foodstuffs. Sometimes we "forecast" and go ahead and package thousands of cases of "Company X" saltines. These items have a 6 month shelf life. Time comes and goes, and Company X doesn't place an order. When we are in the 5th month of the shelf life and the product hasn't shipped, we have two choices: Sell to a salvage store or scrap it. If we scrap it, we get pig food prices. If we sell it to a salvage store, we take less of a loss. Most of the time, we will sell to the salvage so that we lose less money.

Either way, this is obviously not a sustainable business model, but it does happen. We manufacturer thousands and thousands of SKUs on a 10 calendar day turnaround, so we have to "forecast". And just like the weatherman, sometimes we forecast wrong.

Maybe HF forecast how many mowers they were going to sell, and here we are at the end of the season, and they still have 10,000 mowers taking up space. They may have the choice of sitting on them to sell next year, but in the meantime, they planned on using that storage space for new inventory coming in. Now they have a choice: sell the mowers for less and get them out of the way, or buy/lease/rent more storage space so that they have room for both the mowers that didn't sell and the inventory that is coming in. Now, it will end up costing MORE to not sell the mowers, so you sell the mowers for a minimal profit, or no profit at all, just so you don't sink more money into them.

I have no idea if this is the case with the mowers, but I know that it happens with crackers. And like Brent says, we don't normally sell under cost - 'cause that doesn't make shareholders happy at all.

 

[Soundguy]

Which process would be the absolute cheapest in production? That should give you about a 99% accurate response to your questions.

a machined in bearing race would be cheap.. and I can see them doing that.

a setup with an unsupported R&P ? hmm.. I actually don't see them doing that.. it would take a special housing with perhaps 2 bearings at the front and lower area to support the shafts.. and if they are doing that.. why do anything special.. and just have then equally supported. ive seen stamped cover plates with alignment fixtures on the other end for shaft / bushing/beairng.

bushings on that rear support would be sub optimal.. but again.. i can see them using a yellow metal bushing on the rear, and a machined in race in the front.. that would be imho.. a very cheap to make setup, as the rear plate could be welded on a jig with a section of pipe welded to it, and then a piece of bearing bronze reamed to fit with an oil passage for splash lube pressed in, and then all that slid into place on the cast box..

the rear bush COULD be serviced.. agravating.. but serviceable. the front face / race? might be a deal killer. once it wears you have 2 options.. weld and regrind.. probably work and cost mor ethan worth.. might have cracking issues... or cut for a standard race.. which might not be an option due to web thickness ( lack thereof ).

I think it's time for someone to push HF for a gearbox breakdown

soundguy

 

[Soundguy]

i was looking at his statment just the opposite. not deficit production, just gross profits.

IE.. produce the box as cheap as possible, then sell it based on similar market products average retail cost. IE.. if similar mower boxes cost 200-300$.. sell this one for that. even if it cost 15$ to make and some slave labor...

another option no one has mentioned is a replacement box. perhaps grab a box from a salvaged mower to replace this box if it dies. with the implement as cheap as it is.. you could do some kustomizin' to it and still be dollars ahead.

also.. are we sure this as a R&P setup, and not something odd like a worm?

soundguy

Really?! I suppose all those professors in all the years I took economics classes are all wrong and I must just be just plain lucky with my business models in creating the businesses I've created.

I have to say that I find the odds of this manufacturer selling under cost to put the next lowest manufacturer out of business rather slim since the next lowest manufacturer is possibly the same plant or one right down the road owned by the same Chinese corporation. Sorry, but prices are set due to specific criteria, they are not set 'just because'.

 

[Dargo]

I think it's time for someone to push HF for a gearbox breakdown

soundguy

Not me. It's waaay past the $20 limit I have on Horrible Freight gambles. I'd buy a goat before I'd waste nearly $400 at HF on a RFM.

 

[Soundguy]

good point. just how long can you set on inventory and store it.. and pay tangible taxes on it.

notice year end is right around the corner.. and notic ethe mowers just went clearance. my bet is the store don't want to pay tangible taxes on that stock. sell what you can and loose less. we all know HF moves and clearances items that have poor sales records.

almost like buying lawnmowers that are left on the lot when winter shows up... and the price drops 10-20% as clearance....

I have worked in the entertainment and around food service industries for a while now. it's not uncommon to give away service to sell product.. many times as a wash.. but it keeps product moved and opens inventory$$. also not uncommon to pay big$$ to book a name act, make the cover charge cover the act qand plated food, an dthen solely look at profit off of DRINK sakes and upcharges. that is VERY common. ie.. pay to make a situation happen where you can then sell to a crowd. and just hop ticket sales cover incoming show expenses. ie.. target ticket price around estimated seat sales, then do the math for per ticket price. if you target 80% capacity for break even.. then you actually make money off seats at 81%, and loose money at 79%

one of the big clients I work for does this on a monthly basis, rolling the dice each time that they will have enough buts in seats to cover show expenses, then just scrap some profit off alc sales... hard way to live.. but unless you are rich.. or have good engraving skills there's not much else to do anymore..

soundguy

I would bet what Jake meant is that there is a chance that the units may be being sold for less than normal profit or for no profit at all. There are times that it is better for a manufacturer to get "something" out of goods than nothing at all.

Example: I work for a food manufacturing company that private labels retail foodstuffs. Sometimes we "forecast" and go ahead and package thousands of cases of "Company X" saltines. These items have a 6 month shelf life. Time comes and goes, and Company X doesn't place an order. When we are in the 5th month of the shelf life and the product hasn't shipped, we have two choices: Sell to a salvage store or scrap it. If we scrap it, we get pig food prices. If we sell it to a salvage store, we take less of a loss. Most of the time, we will sell to the salvage so that we lose less money.

Either way, this is obviously not a sustainable business model, but it does happen. We manufacturer thousands and thousands of SKUs on a 10 calendar day turnaround, so we have to "forecast". And just like the weatherman, sometimes we forecast wrong.

Maybe HF forecast how many mowers they were going to sell, and here we are at the end of the season, and they still have 10,000 mowers taking up space. They may have the choice of sitting on them to sell next year, but in the meantime, they planned on using that storage space for new inventory coming in. Now they have a choice: sell the mowers for less and get them out of the way, or buy/lease/rent more storage space so that they have room for both the mowers that didn't sell and the inventory that is coming in. Now, it will end up costing MORE to not sell the mowers, so you sell the mowers for a minimal profit, or no profit at all, just so you don't sink more money into them.

I have no idea if this is the case with the mowers, but I know that it happens with crackers. And like Brent says, we don't normally sell under cost - 'cause that doesn't make shareholders happy at all.

 

[Argosy]

another option no one has mentioned is a replacement box. perhaps grab a box from a salvaged mower to replace this box if it dies. with the implement as cheap as it is.. you could do some kustomizin' to it and still be dollars ahead.

also.. are we sure this as a R&P setup, and not something odd like a worm?

soundguy

A replacement gearbox is always an option but chances are good you will also have to find a double pulley. The belt tension is set by sliding the gear box so the mounting holes need to match or you need to have the ability to make new slots. Not that hard, but why get involved on a cheap piece of equipment?

The shape of the gear box doesn't look like it would be a worm gear setup. Both shafts look like they are centered in the casting, one would have to be offset for the worm shaft.

It's possible to fix or improve nearly anything. But the question in my mind is why would you consider buying a piece of equipment on the cheap that you have to think ahead about how to repair, make improvements the manufacturer left off because of cost? A decent used mower really won't cost much more and the quality is built in, it doesn't have to be added on.

 

[OkieDave]

Would you take your family and fly a "Jinma" or "Chinese built" plane? Ken Sweet

Yes (Nanchang CJ-6), and we did aerobatics. Lots of fun!