Hot Water Tank Efficiency

[kenmac]

water problems ? If you had to replace elements because of water problems.Trust me, You don't want a tankless

 

[Looking4new]

My heat pump hot water heater takes hot air from my wood stove right across from it. The wood stove burns all winter long. The basement is unfinished. The basement is usually around 80F in winter and the same in summer. Temps in summer can and have gotten up to 100+.

 

[Oldoak]

Why do you think investing in stock market and investing in house is different? Either way you are taking chunk of money out of your savings to buy something.


If the return on a furnace is so far out that you could put that money in a mutual fund and be ahead, then you have more money.

You have to factor in taxes, installation cost, ect.

Like I said, buying another car to save gas, when you have one is often a bad idea. But it feels good. To someone who doesn't think much they are saving money every day.


The averase person can't do math. The heart wants what it wants.

Talk about going off on a tangent? There is no comparison between the two.

 

[rgr33]

I bought the Rheem hybrid water heater you pictured in January, after a power surge fried my previous electric heater. The yellow energy sticker stated 151 dollars/year on the hybrid vs 505 on the previous 5 year old heater.

In the 3 months we've had it, our electric bill has been running 75-80 dollars less each month. Not sure how much the weather enters into that, it's been a mild but wet winter so far. The utility co. Rebated 300 dollars of the 995 original cost. So far, I am happy with the heater, and probably won't go back to a non hybrid when this one goes out.

I installed this one myself, it was easy using pex and shark bite fittings, and didn't bother with the wifi stuff. Mine is in my garage, and the one thing I didn't expect was the large amount of condensation output from the unit. Right now, it just empties into a bucket, which I empty every day. When the weather dries up, I will need to install a drain line running out through the foundation. Hope that anyone installing one in their basement has a floor drain.

 

[Looking4new]

Hope that anyone installing one in their basement has a floor drain.

Mine is right beside the sump hole and will drain straight into it.

 

[BrokeFarmerJohn]

Mine is right beside the sump hole and will drain straight into it.

Mine is similar, it's next to a floor drain, same drain my water softener regenerates into. And also the dehumidifier dumps into.

 

[BrokeFarmerJohn]

I bought the Rheem hybrid water heater you pictured in January, after a power surge fried my previous electric heater. The yellow energy sticker stated 151 dollars/year on the hybrid vs 505 on the previous 5 year old heater.

In the 3 months we've had it, our electric bill has been running 75-80 dollars less each month. Not sure how much the weather enters into that, it's been a mild but wet winter so far. The utility co. Rebated 300 dollars of the 995 original cost. So far, I am happy with the heater, and probably won't go back to a non hybrid when this one goes out.

I installed this one myself, it was easy using pex and shark bite fittings, and didn't bother with the wifi stuff. Mine is in my garage, and the one thing I didn't expect was the large amount of condensation output from the unit. Right now, it just empties into a bucket, which I empty every day. When the weather dries up, I will need to install a drain line running out through the foundation. Hope that anyone installing one in their basement has a floor drain.

Is your garage cold? How much does it cool the air? How many BTUs does it take out of the air?

 

[Raspy]

Broke,

When trying to justify a new unit like this by citing the payback as a reason, you have to somehow factor in the reliability too. We can never do that, so it just becomes a best case bet. If the payback is 8 years, you're even money at 8 years and haven't saved a thing. Now, after that is when the savings begin, and your starting out with an 8 year old appliance.

If that appliance is not 100% reliable the payback moves farther and farther into the future.

If your existing water heater failed, it would make more sense to replace it with something you believed was better and weigh the costs at that time. I like the utility rebate idea too. Maybe yours does that. Of course you'll have to fill out the forms, get a permit and inspection, etc. So factor that in too.

It has become abundantly clear to me, with a hydronic heating business for almost 40 years, that simplicity and proven components are the key to success. I strive to make systems simple. That doesn't mean they don't have capability, just the opposite, they do it all with the minimum of parts and therefore increased reliability and low build cost.

I've mentioned it already, but if you only want BTUs at the lowest cost with the best reliability for the long run, you probably can't do better than with thermal solar.

Another trap that people fall into is to make the leap that since they have an efficient system, or a perceived efficient system, that they can be more careless with use. Of course they can, but if the original intention was to save money, they don't. That is part of the fallacy of tankless water heaters. "If it's more efficient, we can take longer showers, and we never run out of hot water".

People always have only two answers to my question after a year or so of having one of my systems. The question is: did your bill go down? If the answer is no, it's only because they are now heating to a higher temp or heating more rooms than before. In other words, they answer that they are heating more and like the added comfort, for the same cost, or they noticed a significant reduction in the bill.

In your case you've said you are willing to work on it to save repair costs. Cool. You'll have fun hunting down parts while your family takes cold showers. Hmmmm, is that negative enough?

In my case, when I have given a guarantee, I have to perform or take the hit.

I really hope heat pump water heating is reliable. It's a great idea. If the Rheem unit is as reliable as a household refrigerator they will have a great product.

 

[nikdfish]

FWIW, we put in a GE GeoSpring "hybrid" water heater in 2010 when we moved into this house (the old unit was leaking). "Hybrid" meaning it has both a heat pump and internal resistance elements. It has been run in "eco" mode since install (meaning the resistance elements are locked out). For us, it has provided plenty of hot water, has never run out, since install with 2 to 4 adults in the household over the 7 years of operation.

No problems to date. We did pay an additional $75 for a 10 year bumper to bumper warranty (covers everything including repair/replace labor), but no need to invoke it to date.

Nick

 

[BrokeFarmerJohn]

FWIW, we put in a GE GeoSpring "hybrid" water heater in 2010 when we moved into this house (the old unit was leaking). "Hybrid" meaning it has both a heat pump and internal resistance elements. It has been run in "eco" mode since install (meaning the resistance elements are locked out). For us, it has provided plenty of hot water, has never run out, since install with 2 to 4 adults in the household over the 7 years of operation.

No problems to date. We did pay an additional $75 for a 10 year bumper to bumper warranty (covers everything including repair/replace labor), but no need to invoke it to date.

Nick

Where is the tank at? How much does it cool the airspace?

 

[nikdfish]

In the unfinished basement (a walk-out) which is about 900 square feet & originally not part of the heated envelope. It really hasn't caused a noticeable difference, pretty much about like running a dehumidifier (which is another side effect). You need a drain option for the moisture it removes from the air, I added an elbow (had a plumber do it, anyway) connected to the main stack to let a gravity flow handle it. I added a vent & return to the basement space mainly to get some cooling during summer (my amateur radio gear is set up down there) & I do get a bit of heating that way as well (roughly a 12"x4" vent in the middle of the space & 12"x8" return above my radio desk). Our heating is primarily via heat pump w/propane backup. We have tended to use only about 50 gallons or so of propane a year (prior to adding the propane fueled generator last summer) so any "stolen heat" is generally coming from another heat pump.

Nick

 

[300UGUY]

I bought a Rheem Marathon heater 2 years ago. I didn't need a connected one. It replaced a 20 year old heater, that had started to leak. One thing, the model I have is very fat, it takes up much more space. My electric bill went down about $10 per month. Only 2 of us, so it comes off a low base.

 

[Zerk]

I got over 40 years out of my last one, but doubt I will this time.

 

[BrokeFarmerJohn]

I'm kinda surprised so many people here have the hybrid water heaters, nothing bad about them so far. When I did my calculations I figured that my bill would go down $10-$15 a month, could be more but that's the figure I came up with.

 

[Zerk]

Talk about going off on a tangent? There is no comparison between the two.

100% comparison. Replacing a car for a more a fuel efficient model, and time value of money. You buy water heaters with money. You want to save money. Often it would be better to take the money you were going to use to buy the water water heater, and buy a mutual fund. It should be doubling around every 7 years. People here are talking about making up the money. Breaking even is not getting ahead.

Some people just don't understand math, electricity, or money. Hopefully they are lucky in love.

 

[BrokeFarmerJohn]

100% comparison. Replacing a car for a more a fuel efficient model, and time value of money. You buy water heaters with money. You want to save money. Often it would be better to take the money you were going to use to buy the water water heater, and buy a mutual fund. It should be doubling around every 7 years. People here are talking about making up the money. Breaking even is not getting ahead.

Some people just don't understand math, electricity, or money. Hopefully they are lucky in love.

10 year mortgage or 30 year making an extra payment to principal each year and investing what's left?

 

[Zerk]

10 year mortgage or 30 year making an extra payment to principal each year and investing what's left?

The question is?

I don't get paid every other week. So making extra payments isn't really an option. I get paid 12 times a year.


But people should take pen to paper and write it down. I actually prefer spreadsheets. Take a $1000. See how many months it will take you to break even. Then take take $1000 and look at rate of returns on mutual funds. Subtract taxes you will pay because it will be income. The mutual fund is making money. The water heater is starting out in the hole.

If you need a water heater, subtract the cost of a normal one from the cost of the expensive one. That helps. Even then it is hard to break ahead. You have increased labor cost, it is not a one for one swap. It needs a direct vent. I was a plumber, and even given that, it just wasn't worth doubling the cost of material.


Some people like carrying risk and having a mortgage. So they spend 3% on mortgage, which they can deduct 25%. As long as they have enough to deduct. So they invest it, for say 7-10. Which they are paying tax on too. It can work out. Myself, I listen to Dave Ramsey. He did a study. 100% of foreclosed homes had a mortgage.

But mortgage have nothing to do with this conversion. Reduce this to buying a $500 widget or $1000 widget, that saves you $10 a month. Remove everything except numbers.

Get rid of your feelings.

 

[Zerk]

10 year mortgage or 30 year making an extra payment to principal each year and investing what's left?

If you can afford it, I will go 10 year mortgage. $$$$$ less interest. Secruity. In 10 years you have that mortgage payment to invest for the next 20.

Imagine all the wealth you could build without a mortgage.

If you want a tax deductions, send me $10k, I will give you 2.5. That is how smart the average American is. They think that is good investment.

 

[Tractor Seabee]

Mine is similar, it's next to a floor drain, same drain my water softener regenerates into. And also the dehumidifier dumps into.

For those contemplating the condessing type WHs and furnaces; remember the condensate is highly corrosive (acidic), eats just about anything including concrete.

Ron

 

[Zerk]

My heat pump hot water heater takes hot air from my wood stove right across from it. The wood stove burns all winter long. The basement is unfinished. The basement is usually around 80F in winter and the same in summer. Temps in summer can and have gotten up to 100+.

That sure sucks. Can't you open windows? Move it outside?