How is this not robbery?

[Leejohn]

Here is the mistake the shop made right up front. He went and looked at the flat rate to give you a price. He should of just said XXXX$ and then its up to you, not even said anything about the flat rate. Flat rate is for warranty work and just a guide line for a shop to make a est. And as for as shop rate at XX$, there is not a shop in the world that can count for every min, out of a working day. Just taking to you takes up time..
I also never heard of any small business man that only works 8 hours a day.
This thread made me think of a uncle of mine. He had a guy come out to clear some land. He sat and watched him for about a hour and went up and told the cat driver that he wasn't paying for him to back up. You can guess what hit the fan.

 

[aczlan]

When I was young enough to get my first car, the mechanic my family used explained to me that his shop billed by book rate regardless of the time it took to do the job. Sometimes it worked in his favor, sometimes not, but he told everyone up front that was his practice.

The shop I frequent works that way. Diagnostic stuff (smoke test the evap emissions system, pressure test the coolant system) is by the hour, but the procedures (replacing the radiator for example) is book rate. No more, no less. Sometimes they win (as this shop did with the wiper motor) and sometimes they lose.

I think if the shop is upfront with the billing practice and you agree you have not been robbed. If the shop says they charge the book rate and then charge you for the greater hours when the job takes longer then you have been robbed.

I agree.
Also, if you have done this job in an hour in the past and they quoted you 3 hours for the same job, why didn't you question it?

Aaron Z

 

[dave1949]

There is some difference between a quote and an estimate. JJ said he received an estimate, that is technically not the same as quoting a price. He knew it doesn't take three hours and perhaps thought he would not be charged for three hours.

The real problem here is customer expectation management. Getting into how the estimated price is determined only opens the door to dissatisfaction later on. Assuming the shop has to get 3 hrs. worth of pay to be profitable, it makes no sense to say anything else. That actually becomes a quoted price - this is what I will charge you.
Dave.

 

[Turbys_1700]

I am very fortunate to have an excellent mechanic that works out of his home garage...
I use him exclusively for repairs on my vehicles...
His overhead is very low and his rates reflect that...
I believe in dealers and they need to be supported but I also believe in my personal mechanic...
If I need something repaired I tell him and he tells me to bring it over at a specific time and he does the repair...
He is very good...

 

[beppington]

I'd be PO'd, too, if I saw what you saw. On the other hand, if the $135 sounded reasonable enough that you agreed to it, then you have a deal & it's a done deal. In this case, it worked out greatly in the shop's favor; I'm sure there are some deals that don't.

It would sure be nice if they'd refund all or even part of the money for the hours they didn't spend on it, but most just don't do that of course. Sure doesn't make it right, but that's the way of our modern world.

One thing they messed up was letting you see the process , that he was working on other cars & it didn't take anywhere near 3 hours. Maybe next time you could drop your vehicle off & go eat somewhere, do a little shopping, & then come back, never letting yourself know the ugly truth

One more thing: Maybe you got a hot-shot mechanic who's just really good at wiper motor replacements? Maybe another mechanic would've fumbled around for 2 or 3 hours, legitimately trying to fix it. Who knows.

 

[Elkins45]

If you want to talk about overcharging!...When was the last time you needed your Dentist or a lawyer.

Lawyers and dentists are like fire extinguishers and concealed handguns...most people don't need them very often, but when you do you REALLY need them!

It's like the apocryphal story of the specialist who charged $1000 to fix a customer's complicated machine. The specialist walked all around the machine, touching and listening in several points, then pulls out a hammer and whacks it in a certain spot: presto, it works again! When the customer asked what he did to deserve such a high fee for so little work, the guy wrote out an itemized bill that said:

Service call: $50
Knowing where to hit it: $950

 

[J_J]

Thanks for the many reply's to a well known situation.

No thanks to the people that think their way is always right and proper.

Don't even think that I am ignorant about the way people do business. I consider myself above avg in knowledge, and I have the right and the knowledge to question different practices.

Sure I could have shopped around and perhaps got a better price, but circumstances dictated otherwise.

You guys that do mechanic work have the advantage on us non mechanics, and retired mechanics, in the fact that you know when you are getting a gravy job, and you also know about those jobs you hate to do.

I supposed that some of you know about those jobs that take much longer time than book time, and you are having a bad day, and someone keeps taking your tools and not returning them,and you hate certain jobs.

If you can not do a job your self, you have to pay someone, and most people with a little knowledge know what is fair.

I would say that most garage/shops make a good living, with good help, and treating people fair.

I think I have a pretty good idea about how businesses operate. If a business is not profitable, you won't stay in that business very long.

I also understand the principle about , I've got it, you need it, so pay up.

Maybe robbery isn't a good word here but the process of taking your money and not working the time is not right at all.

Just because I accepted the bill, does not change my thoughts about the process.

I know you have all done it at one time or another. You didn't like the end results, and sometimes you accepted it because it was the only choice or the best choice, and other times you complained about it.

There will come a time where you will question just about every thing, and also ask about your senior discount.

This thread has put forth some interesting comments, from both sides of the fence, but what if my friend who just injured his hand ask me to put in a similar wiper motor in his truck, do you think he would not blink an eye and say do it.

I think that some of the mechanics , and they all know about book time ,would question every estimate with the knowledge that they have.

 

[Elkins45]

Thanks for the many reply's to a well known situation.

No thanks to the people that think their way is always right and proper.

Are you sure that second sentence doesn't describe you just a little bit? Because there a a whole lot of folks in this thread who have made legitimate points that aren't in agreement with you and you seem to have brushed them aside without much consideration.

Charging book rate for labor is a practice so long established that we might as well debate the building of the pyramids. No matter how you feel about the practice, it isn't going away.

I suspect that you are being just a little bit cranky just for the fun of it--not that there's anything wrong with that

 

[LD1]

WOW, what an interesting read.

Let me start by saying that I completely understad JJ's point of view here. It does seem like robbery to charge someone $45/hour and tell them it will take ~3 hours ($135), and then do it in one hour and still charge them for free.

But then again, that is why I dont like charging per/hour. It's like all the threads here on TBN about "what should I charge for bushhogging" or "what should I charge for ________". As a person who does tractor work on the side also, you just cannot win. Either the customer will think you are milking the clock to get more money, or you try to rush and screw yourself so the customer doesnt get upset.

Anytime I do a paying job, I look at it and know about how long it is going to take me in my head. (booktime). And I multiply whatever my rate is by that amount and give the customer a firm quote. But I DONT let them know my booktime OR hourly rate.

IMO, shops would be far better to do it this way.

JJ: would you have been as upset if they NEVER told you 3 hrs, or that there rate was $45/hr. Instead, Just give you a firm qoute for the job of $135 + part???

Like others said, they let you see the "process". IMO, there is NO need for a customer to know the "booktime" and there is no need for them to know the hourly shop rate. Just givem them a total qoute for the job. Take it or leave it. TO me, that is a fairer way to get the same end result without as many people questioning it.

I can say though, I dont have much experience with shops working on my vehichles. I had 2-years of automotive schooling. So there isnt much I cant fix/diagnose on my own:thumbsup: And I just flat-out dont like paying $100/hr or so to the shop, when I have the tools, ability, and know-how to do it on my own. Not to mention that many times, OEM parts are NOT the best in every case and ususaly 2x's the cost. Plus, I am picky about the way things are done too. If I do, I know its done right.

I know they arent going to change the "process", but IMO, and if I ever owned a shop, things would be qouted a flat price (based on the book time and hourly rate of course) but the customer doesnt NOT need to know those figures. Only Price X to do Job A. Take it or leave it:thumbsup:

 

[MMagis]

Thanks for the many reply's to a well known situation.

No thanks to the people that think their way is always right and proper.

Are you sure that second sentence doesn't describe you just a little bit? Because there a a whole lot of folks in this thread who have made legitimate points that aren't in agreement with you and you seem to have brushed them aside without much consideration.

My thoughts exactly.

J_J, I'm sure you know whatever business YOU were in, but clearly you don't understand the type of business in question. The only mistake the shop made was quoting you in hours instead of just a dollar amount. I'm still baffled why you think the mechanics hourly wage is relevant.

 

[franklinute]

It seems we all have rants about costs of repairs and that expression of this process is good. This is why we live in USA. But to answer your original question as to whether it is robbery-no but very close. I would call it being very greedy. I good friend of mine is a service manager at a major dealer. The service area is very profitable. All dealers use software that keeps track of technician's profit and he will receive a bonus. The service manager will receive a bonus also if profit levels are met. The owner of the dealership is one of the most well to do people in town. He would not have this business if it wasn't highly profitable. Many people in the transaction that get a cut and look at all the transactions they make in a day.
Hey I am like most here. I do all my own maintenance. I do small repairs. I know local specialists that I can take my vehicle to that are fair and honest. The few times I go to the dealer, I cringe, pay the man, complain and walk a little bowlegged for a few days.
In my opinion all these type of expenses will only go up. You either by new and get repair under warranty or take your chances getting repair later down the road.

 

[JDgreen227]

It seems we all have rants about costs of repairs and that expression of this process is good. This is why we live in USA. But to answer your original question as to whether it is robbery-no but very close. I would call it being very greedy. I good friend of mine is a service manager at a major dealer. The service area is very profitable. All dealers use software that keeps track of technician's profit and he will receive a bonus. The service manager will receive a bonus also if profit levels are met. The owner of the dealership is one of the most well to do people in town. He would not have this business if it wasn't highly profitable. Many people in the transaction that get a cut and look at all the transactions they make in a day.
Hey I am like most here. I do all my own maintenance. I do small repairs. I know local specialists that I can take my vehicle to that are fair and honest. The few times I go to the dealer, I cringe, pay the man, complain and walk a little bowlegged for a few days.
In my opinion all these type of expenses will only go up. You either by new and get repair under warranty or take your chances getting repair later down the road.

I have to wonder what your opinion would be of the local dealership with two locations who sells GM products, they advertise on TV 500 times a day and usually conclude their sales pitch with:

"If we make a buck, it's just sheer luck...." HORSE SQUEEZE. If they are operating on such a low profit margin, whats with all the commercials? BTW, they may have low prices but their ads tick me off so much I would NEVER do business with them for that reason alone.

 

[JDgreen227]

I am very fortunate to have an excellent mechanic that works out of his home garage...
I use him exclusively for repairs on my vehicles...
His overhead is very low and his rates reflect that...
I believe in dealers and they need to be supported but I also believe in my personal mechanic...
If I need something repaired I tell him and he tells me to bring it over at a specific time and he does the repair...
He is very good...

I really envy people like you who have the opportunity to patronize such a man, and admire him for his talent and willingness to work for a fair price. Too bad there are not more guys like him around.

 

[Bird]

they may have low prices but their ads tick me off so much I would NEVER do business with them for that reason alone.

I guess it has nothing to do with this thread, but there are a number of companies advertising different products and/or services with whom I would never do business simply because of their advertising.:laughing: I suppose ads that prevent me from doing business with them must get some other customers or they'd drop the ads.

 

[foggy1111]

I can remember having a discussion many years ago where I felt truck driver pay was too high for what they had to do. The other guy told me....."if you think its such great pay.....then why dont you drive a truck?"

He was right. It's America! We are free to choose what we want and who we pay (or dont pay). The markets, competition, and free enterprise should determine the rates for goods and services.

Same goes for mechanical repair....no?

 

[Pete6114]

I understand the OP's opinion.
I work hard for the money i bring home, and when somebody wants to charge me double and triple the hourly wage i get or even more, I dont like it a bit and i do what it takes to get around it.
Thats why over the years i accumulated a whole lot of tools that i needed to do things myself. I build my own shop (myself, exept for a friends help to install the trusses). Including electric. plumbing.Drywalling. When it was time to get garage doors, they wanted 350$ each for installation.( 1 1/2 hours each ). I learned real quick and done it myself and they are square and work perfectly.
I do my own welding (building things i want/need out of metal.)
Whatever i need done, i do myself, and if i need specialty tools, i go buy them.
If i dont know how, i learn how to do it.

I'm not getting any younger either and i do not like the thought of having somebody else do things for me at a crazy hourly rate, when my health will not allow me to do things myself anymore sometime in the future.

When I do some work on the side, i charge 25$ per hour and i work for it. ( i have invested a bunch of money to be able to do my sideline work. ( about 40k in tools but mostly equipment)

Yet, i do not rip people off and i do not charge for work or time/ material i dont use.
Even though it appears to be acceptable to do that in today's world.
I wont get rich but i am happy.

My 2 cent's

 

[J_J]

My thoughts exactly.

J_J, I'm sure you know whatever business YOU were in, but clearly you don't understand the type of business in question. The only mistake the shop made was quoting you in hours instead of just a dollar amount. I'm still baffled why you think the mechanics hourly wage is relevant.

The mechanics wage is not that important, it just reflects how the money is separated, and you have to use that as an example.

We all know things in life are not always fair, and we have to give up the money for things we need.

I did questioned the estimate/quote. He said sometime the job is easy, and logical thinking means maybe he should/will charge me less.

Some people just will not cheat people on time and or estimates.

Call it what you like, I know it is wrong.

As you can see from the thread, some people don't like the process, and it is all about fairness, and other people think, get all you can while you can, sad, but true.

I try to treat people fairly, and I just expect the same.

When the cop gave you a ticket, did you just accept it and pay it, or did you try and fight it. You might say, I am going to fight it, because you did not think it was fair. The judge might drop the charge, or reduce the charge, but also stick to book value for the charge. In this situation, you can't get another quote.

By the way, I am sticking to the truth as I see it.

 

[Car Doc]

JJ,

I agree with this last guy on the hours quote I dont use hours on my tickets either on purpose for this exact reason.

All I use and most smart shops do the same is the dollar amount simply because thats the only relevant thing anyone needs to know is how much does it cost.

When you get into the time it gets confusing to the average consumer why one job is 1 hr and another is 3 hrs they only see themselves and not the shop or tech.

If I was to charge you 3hrs and your neighbor 1hr to do the same job then yes you would have a legitimate complaint and I would owe someone an explanation.

What all of us are trying to point out is there has to be a standard charge like it or not its the only fair way to price these jobs out.

If you think we wouldn't like to charge like a plumber or electrician think again!!! People could make careers out of every job that came thru the door if that was the case.

So be aware thats why there is a flat rate book and it isn't fair to everybody mostly the tech and the shop but it does create a level playing field whether they play fair or not is the individuals prerogative but the honest shops follow the labor book and one tech may beat flat rate and another may never beat it the jobs get charged out the same one tech is more productive than another thats life.

You made the comment they could make so and so much doing 7 wiper jobs in a day.

Come on they probably wont see another one for months rather than having another 6 waiting in line after you we all know the odds on that!

Anyone can paint a picture like that about anything be sensible please and you will get a lot more sympathy. :thumbsup:

And my advice is dont go back find another shop simple as that.

One more thing is we dont know what car you are working on a number of us would have opinions based on the job at hand had we known that from the start?

Also did I read you right you brought your own parts?

 

[ArkLaTexSam]

I understand the OP's opinion.
I work hard for the money i bring home, and when somebody wants to charge me double and triple the hourly wage i get or even more, I dont like it a bit and i do what it takes to get around it.
Thats why over the years i accumulated a whole lot of tools that i needed to do things myself. I build my own shop (myself, exept for a friends help to install the trusses). Including electric. plumbing.Drywalling. When it was time to get garage doors, they wanted 350$ each for installation.( 1 1/2 hours each ). I learned real quick and done it myself and they are square and work perfectly.
I do my own welding (building things i want/need out of metal.)
Whatever i need done, i do myself, and if i need specialty tools, i go buy them.
If i dont know how, i learn how to do it.

I'm not getting any younger either and i do not like the thought of having somebody else do things for me at a crazy hourly rate, when my health will not allow me to do things myself anymore sometime in the future.

When I do some work on the side, i charge 25$ per hour and i work for it. ( i have invested a bunch of money to be able to do my sideline work. ( about 40k in tools but mostly equipment)

Yet, i do not rip people off and i do not charge for work or time/ material i dont use.
Even though it appears to be acceptable to do that in today's world.
I wont get rich but i am happy.

My 2 cent's

If you do the math ($40,000) in tools, mostly equipment plus your man hours, I wonder if you actually saved money buy not paying someone to do the work. I can see both sides of this logic. Even when someone saves, you have to ask was it worth it? I guess that depends on how much u actually saved and how wore out u are in the end.

JJ, I respect your point-of-view; however, I also understand that the shop is a business and must make a profit. If you agreed to a set price then it's a done deal no matter how fast the job was completed.

When I bushhog I base my rate on past experience. I look at the lay of the land, how thick the growth is, obstacles, size, travel time, etc. I then guestimate my total time in doing the particular job, come up with an hourly rate, and provide my quote to the customer. I have lowered my price from my quote only a few times. Most times I win and make money. Sometimes the job takes twice as long, equipment breaks down, and I lose. Either way -that's the risk of doing business.

ArkLaTexSam

 

[LD1]

I understand the OP's opinion.
I work hard for the money i bring home, and when somebody wants to charge me double and triple the hourly wage i get or even more, I dont like it a bit and i do what it takes to get around it.

They have to for the shop to stay in business. IF they only charged you what you make on the hour, that may be enough to pay the tech to do the job. But where does the money come for the overhead? Facilities? Insurance? Lift? Training employees? Electric bill?

Everyone knows that if they do something themselves, it is going to be cheaper. Do you honesty expect to be able to take your car somewhere and get it fixed cheaper than yo could do it yourself???

Flat rate was created to give shops a structured way to charge a customer, AND a fair way to pay employees. The customer doesnt need to be (and shouldnt be) privied to the "book-time". THAT should be for dealer/tech use only. It tells the tech how much to charge, and how much he will make on the job. They should quote you a price. How they came up with that price is not important. If you like the quote, get the work done and dont worry about how long it took them.

The flat rate time also gives the service department the ability to quote a price over the phone. Since it gives them a solid # to go on. Would you rather them say "bring it in and well have to look at it to give you an estimate". And you take it in, they look it over, estimate how long they think it is going to take, give you a price, and if you are unhappy, you just wasted their time AND yours.

I guess the bottom line is, for ANY business to be profitable, you have to charge 2-3x's what a normal persones hourly rate is.

Another example, I plow snow commercially in the winter. There are several times I get turned down when trying to pick up drives and such. For a normal country drive 100-200' long, I'll charge $40-$50. And yes, it will only take me 15-20 minutes. How about the hourly rate on that. I often have people who think that is ludicris. But then again, they dont have a $4000 plow, commercial insurance, general business insurance, wear and tear on their truck, fuel, etc. Let them spend 2 hours with a shovel. I wont loose any sleep. Running any kind of business at all requires more than $20-$25/hour to be profitable, and if I cant charge enough to be profitable, I wont do business.