How is this not robbery?

[Car Doc]

I am just like most big shops except I am a one man shop now in that I have well over 100k in tools, my computer program that has the labor guides and writes my tickets was 6k and updates every 3-4 years is 2500, my updates on my scan tool alone are 1000 a year.

My garage keepers insurance is 3500 year its purely liability. I regularly spend 150-200 going to i day training classes have for 25 years or so. I am a member of an online professional technicians forum Iatn and that costs 165 a year.

My voluntary ASE certifications cost me 165 every 5 years and I have been an ASE master tech and more recently when OBD2 came along an L1 well over 25 years I am at the highest level a tech can achieve and all that doesn't pay me one dime extra except I can do a few jobs quicker than some other techs and may be more accurate in my diagnosis. I forgot about work comp we are one of the higher risks.

Being in this business is not cheap our continuing education is closer to a doctor than a plumber.

My customers allow me to make a living off of them and I do not make a fortune at this you can believe it. The overhead is unreal and if I break something on someones car it comes out of my pocket so I dont break anything.

 

[Pete6114]

If you do the math ($40,000) in tools, mostly equipment plus your man hours, I wonder if you actually saved money buy not paying someone to do the work. I can see both sides of this logic. Even when someone saves, you have to ask was it worth it? I guess that depends on how much u actually saved and how wore out u are in the end.
ArkLaTexSam

Oh....the 40k is only the painting equipment, not my other non-painting related tools and equipment i have collected and use ( line stripe machine= 20k
5gal paintshaker=5k, 2-1 gal shaker 4.5k. bunch of ladders and plenty of other things. Thats my side line job.
It all paid for itself and keeps money in my pocket without charging people crazy rates.
Yes, i have overhead costs as well but i include them in my 25/hr rate.
I turn plenty of jobs away, as i can not do them all. At 25/hr, i am doing just fine. Some of the quotes customers get, are out of this world. I think it's called GREED.

I enjoy and find tremendes satisfation in doing things myself. Started with cars....ended up doing everything on my cars, including rebuilding a engine and doing body work/repainting after my wife wrecked her car.
Not wore out at all....plenty of live left.
Is it worth it? Absolutely!

What got me started many years ago, was a oil-change on the car i had. They stripped the threat on the oil pan plug. Of course, it wasent them.......!hmmmm
Same thing happend a second time on another car. That was the point of me starting to learn and doing as much as i can for myself. Electrical and welding was the last thing i added to my abilities.

I know it takes money to keep a ship afloat and it can be done with reasonable rates ,giving people what they pay for and without over-charging.

Sorry for hyjacking this forum. Just supporting J J post, by explaining why i do.
Carry on, i'll just keep reading.......

 

[LD1]

Oh....the 40k is only the painting equipment, not my other non-painting related tools and equipment i have collected and use ( line stripe machine= 20k
5gal paintshaker=5k, 2-1 gal shaker 4.5k. bunch of ladders and plenty of other things. Thats my side line job.
It all paid for itself and keeps money in my pocket without charging people crazy rates.
Yes, i have overhead costs as well but i include them in my 25/hr rate.
I turn plenty of jobs away, as i can not do them all. At 25/hr, i am doing just fine. Some of the quotes customers get, are out of this world. I think it's called GREED.

I enjoy and find tremendes satisfation in doing things myself. Started with cars....ended up doing everything on my cars, including rebuilding a engine and doing body work/repainting after my wife wrecked her car.
Not wore out at all....plenty of live left.
Is it worth it? Absolutely!

What got me started many years ago, was a oil-change on the car i had. They stripped the threat on the oil pan plug. Of course, it wasent them.......!hmmmm
Same thing happend a second time on another car. That was the point of me starting to learn and doing as much as i can for myself. Electrical and welding was the last thing i added to my abilities.

I know it takes money to keep a ship afloat and it can be done with reasonable rates ,giving people what they pay for and without over-charging.

Sorry for hyjacking this forum. Just supporting J J post, by explaining why i do.
Carry on, i'll just keep reading.......

I have no Idea at all how someone can be self-employed and only charge 25/hr and stay afloat.

I am a machinest/mechanic/welder at a factory. I make 25/hr plus all my benefits, retirement, and ALL the overead is theirs. If I would quit my job and start a business on my own with absolutly NO employees, I'd have to charge $50 MINIMUM just to be where I am at now.

And you are also forgetting that the market also sets pricing. Have you been to a dealership service dept lately? They dont seem to be hurting for work. There racks are always full. And if you do need to schedual an appointment, they are usually booked a few days out. Now imagine how long the wait would be if there rates were half of what they are now?

 

[cdaigle430]

Better question would be how one could figure it is "robbery"?

What the mechanic is getting paid is irrelevant. Besides maybe he is really good and can make three times flat rate. Nobodies lieing. No theft involved.

If it took him 4 hours you would still hold him to the 3 so where is the gripe?

You agreed to the rate before they started therefore it is fair.

I don't know what stealership your reffering to but the ones I have dealt with past or present-if they go over the 3 hour estimate-even by 15 minutes-will charge another hour.

Another way they rob you is by charging a 40-65% markup on parts-even if they have to order it so don't give me the stock fee garbage.

 

[LD1]

I don't know what stealership your reffering to but the ones I have dealt with past or present-if they go over the 3 hour estimate-even by 15 minutes-will charge another hour.

Another way they rob you is by charging a 40-65% markup on parts-even if they have to order it so don't give me the stock fee garbage.

And you think dealerships are the only ones that have steep mark-ups?

Someone mentioned restraunts and iced-tea earlier. Do you complain about you $1.95 drink when it only cost them $0.20? You dont think walmart marks up prices? Autozone? you get the picture.

Again, it is a free market. You have to option to buy the part elsewhere for less. But if the dealership can move pleanty of Items at the price they set.....Supply and Demand. Simple as that.

And I dont know about other states, but here in ohio, they cannot increase the bill more than 10% without you agreeing to it first. So if they quote you $200 to repair based on their diagnosis, and it turns out they were wrong and had to replace more than they thought, they CANNOT charge you mre than $220 WITHOUT you agreeing to it. So if they never called you, and you show up and they try to slap you with a $350 bill, you are only obligated to pay $220.

This very scenerio happened to me about 10 years ago on a 1993 firebird. It was an intermitten problem. I diagnsed it to be the computer. I called the dealer and asked what they charge to program and install the computer. $425 but he said they rarly go bad and he wanted to diagnose it first. I asked if it turned out to indeed be the computer, would he only charge me the $425. He said NO, they would charge the diagostic fee. I told the DO NOT diagnose it. Just program and install the computer.

Well...when I picked up the car, they tried to charge over $600, for diagnosing, and they also replaced a few sensors trying to fix it. Long story short, I only payed $425 and said thanks for the new TPS and IAC sensors

 

[foggy1111]

I owned my own manufacturing company for many years. When I added up all the manufacturing costs (labor, insurance, management, facilties overhead, tools, and other operating expenses) our COST per man hour working to manufacture our widgets came to $56.00 per hour. At that rate, we did not make any profit on the labor.....that was the man hour cost to produce our widgets.

I'm sure this is in the same ballpark with other manufacturing or repair facilites in the USA. If you see a $40 shop rate somewhere.....either the guy is gonna go broke or there are some needs being unfunded, or both. (IMO)

 

[J_J]

Car Doc

[You made the comment they could make so and so much doing 7 wiper jobs in a day.

Come on they probably wont see another one for months rather than having another 6 waiting in line after you we all know the odds on that!

Anyone can paint a picture like that about anything be sensible please and you will get a lot more sympathy. ]

******************************************


That statement was hypothetical in the sense what one could do, and what the mechanic could make, and what the shop would make in 7 hrs.

I am not asking for sympathy or anything, but just stating my observations, and how I feel about it.

Some of you seem to be getting upset about things that happen every day. Some like it and some don't.

In my lawn service business, I would tell my customers up front about the charge per cut, and I told them some months had 4 weeks in it and others have 5 weeks. When I would bill for 5 weeks some of them would get upset, because they thought they had a constant monthly rate. I would put the dates that I cut on the invoice so they would understand.

I lost come contracts because of that.

I thought I was being very fair by letting them pay once a month. Sometimes I would lose $140 to $180 on a renters yard when they just moved out. That happened more than once.

I don't begrudge anyone making a living, but I would like the maintain what I have also.

Free enterprise is just that, sometimes you just have to pay, whether you like it or not.

How many of you let your wife take the car in to get it repaired? Do you think they will give her the same rate as they give you?

Yoe, I did purchase my own part, knowing that they would probably charge much higher than I could buy it, plus, I get the core charge refund, not them

Am I right or wrong, who really cares, You got to pay your self or someone, or not get the job done.

If I could have done the job, it would have cost me about $45.95 for the part.

 

[LD1]

In my lawn service business, I would tell my customers up front about the charge per cut, and I told them some months had 4 weeks in it and others have 5 weeks. When I would bill for 5 weeks some of them would get upset, because they thought they had a constant monthly rate. I would put the dates that I cut on the invoice so they would understand.

I lost come contracts because of that.

I thought I was being very fair by letting them pay once a month. Sometimes I would lose $140 to $180 on a renters yard when they just moved out. That happened more than once.

I don't begrudge anyone making a living, but I would like the maintain what I have also.

Free enterprise is just that, sometimes you just have to pay, whether you like it or not.

How many of you let your wife take the car in to get it repaired? Do you think they will give her the same rate as they give you?

How did you base your rate tht you charged?

The guy I know that owns a mowing business, can look at a yard and tell how long it is going to take to cut per cut. Based on size and obsticals. And he knows how much per hour he has to charge to pay for employees, overhead, fuel, etc. That is how he determins what to bid a job at. But instead of telling the customer some obscene $/hr number, if is a flat-rate per cut.

That is all the dealers are doing by book-time. It gives them a guide to figure how much to charge for a job. And it also rewards their employees that are good, since there pay is also based on that.

Would you have felt better if they only charged you 1 hour, but their rate was $135/hr?? Either way, the end result would be the same.

When I do side-jobs, I estimate how long it is going to take me, and mutiply that by what I charge per hour, and give them a flat price. If it doesnt take me as long, I come out ahead. If it takes longer, I come in a little behind. But that I why I give a customer a price of XX dollars to do XX work. And NOT per/hr. It just causes too many headaches as we have seen here.

 

[Car Doc]

JJ,

Like all shops and businesses there are things we like and dont like to do we do them because they are there or we turn them away if we have the choice.

There is nothing I personally would rather do all day every day than change water pumps and timing belts on v6 Toyota cars and trucks.

They pay about 3.5 hours I do them in 2.5 with one hand tied behind my back and still have time to sit here and talk to you guys and when the day is done I have fixed peoples cars properly and did it less than the dealer would charge simply because my shop rate is less by 20 an hour and I use 100% OEM parts from those same dealers and charge the exact same price as they do for them..

They dont have and leaks squeaks or rattles and away thy go and they dont have to come back because I missed something and I made my living for a day we all are happy.

Now some days dont go that good I may spend several days diagnosing a intermittent problem for free just so I can fix the car. I wind up charging them something but no where near straight time the extra hour I made on a few timing belt wp jobs helps offset these days.

I am not anyone special just some guy in a town that fixes cars for a living just like all the other honest shops in the country scratching a living in a very difficult occupation and economy hope you can lighten up on those guys please there is more than meets the eye. :thumbsup:

And I have 2 rules of being in business as follows-1 you cant loan people money in order for them to do business with you (credit) 2 you cant make a living off someone with no money. and lastly my pet peeve rule- you dont take a steak and potatoes to applebys so dont bring parts to me. wink

 

[JimWalch]

Shop Labor Rate


$25.00 per hour

$50.00 per hour if you wait

$75.00 if you watch

$100.00 if you help

$150.00 if you worked on it first and couldn't fix it

 

[J_J]

Car Doc

[ and lastly my pet peeve rule- you dont take a steak and potatoes to applebys so dont bring parts to me. wink ]

After observing many time, the charge for parts say for NAPA, I ask the mechanic one time why are you charging me $20 more than I could purchase the part at the same NAPA store. He could not give me a good answer.

The other reason was that I didn't want the mechanic keeping the core charge refund.

A lot of us know some of the tricks pulled on us by certain people, and we try to avoid that if possible. You know, the oil change that was never done, rear end drained and flushed, etc. Undercover cameras have caught a lot of this stuff.

A lot of people also don't know if the parts are OEM or rebuilt. Some of us would really like to know.

I am not coming down on anybody, simply stating my observations and what I didn't like.

People in replying, should be stating their observations about what they have experienced , not at what I observed. I can almost bet that everyone of you have been through a similar situation with other repairs. You shrug it off and keep on going.

 

[Bird]

And I have 2 rules of being in business as follows-1 you cant loan people money in order for them to do business with you (credit) 2 you cant make a living off someone with no money. and lastly my pet peeve rule- you dont take a steak and potatoes to applebys so dont bring parts to me. wink

Yes, mechanics make a profit on parts and should. I would never consider taking the parts to a mechanic for him to install without expecting to pay more. And with some parts, even a new part can be defective. Would you expect a mechanic to replace a defective part with no labor charge, if the part was one you gave him?

Maybe I have a little different view of the situation because my Dad owned a couple of service stations when I was a teenager, back when they were service stations instead of gas stations. We not only sold gasoline and oils, but washed windshields, aired up tires, fixed flats, changed oil & filters, greased vehicles (yep, they used to have grease zerks), washed cars, and changed fan belts and radiator hoses ourselves; even did an occasional brake job.

And then Dad & I opened the little town's first auto parts store in 1957-58. There was no such thing as the discount auto parts stores, no Walmarts, Auto Zone, O'Reilly's, etc. Now our primary parts supplier had several price sheets; (1) our cost, (2) retail, (3) service station, and (4) dealer price. Supposedly in those days, some auto parts stores charged independent mechanics and service stations more for parts than they charged car dealers. That little town had Ford, Oldsmobile, Buick, and Plymouth dealers and they were our biggest customers because none of them stocked many parts. But we charged all the mechanics, service stations, and dealers the same price (the lowest "dealer" price). When they charged a customer retail price, their profit was 40% (except for bearings; we sold them at a flat 50% of retail so a mechanic doubled his money on those). When individuals that we knew personally did their own work, we gave them the same price, but if it was a stranger, we quoted retail price because we'd have lost customers if we sold parts to a individual who then took those parts to a mechanic to have them installed.

 

[beppington]

IIRC someone on here said that mechanics pay for that job pricing book. Well, if you're the company selling that book, wouldn't you want to be able to make the claim, "You'll make more money if you use our book."? Soooo ... they simply bump all of their true job estimates up a little ... or a lot! 1 hour (real world) jobs become 2-hour jobs, etc. And presto, the mechanic makes more money ... as long as customers tolerate the new higher fees anyway ... & if a customer questions you on anything, all you have to do is say, "Well the book says so."

 

[beppington]

...

And then Dad & I opened the little town's first auto parts store in 1957-58. There was no such thing as the discount auto parts stores, no Walmarts, Auto Zone, O'Reilly's, etc. Now our primary parts supplier had several price sheets; (1) our cost, (2) retail, (3) service station, and (4) dealer price. Supposedly in those days, some auto parts stores charged independent mechanics and service stations more for parts than they charged car dealers. That little town had Ford, Oldsmobile, Buick, and Plymouth dealers and they were our biggest customers because none of them stocked many parts. But we charged all the mechanics, service stations, and dealers the same price (the lowest "dealer" price). When they charged a customer retail price, their profit was 40% (except for bearings; we sold them at a flat 50% of retail so a mechanic doubled his money on those). When individuals that we knew personally did their own work, we gave them the same price, but if it was a stranger, we quoted retail price because we'd have lost customers if we sold parts to a individual who then took those parts to a mechanic to have them installed.

So many people play these games, trying to get the most $ the market will bear ... aka that the customer will pay.

 

[Car Doc]

The other reason was that I didn't want the mechanic keeping the core charge refund.

A lot of us know some of the tricks pulled on us by certain people, and we try to avoid that if possible. You know, the oil change that was never done, rear end drained and flushed, etc. Undercover cameras have caught a lot of this stuff.

.

JJ,

I put right on my tickets whether they are new or reman and I put the part numbers down also, all Toyota and Honda cars I work get only new OEM parts period I even keep OEM oil filters in stock fwtw.

They charge the core and then if we dont bring it back they keep the money the shop isn't making anything off your old parts geez you watch too much TV. :laughing:

You wouldn't even get in my shop bringing your own parts it isn't a convenience for me they bring me parts in a delivery truck.

I would send you to the knuckleheads down the street that dont care about the quality of the work they do and they also charge more for labor in these instances maybe thats what happened here too. btw

 

[Car Doc]

"Well the book says so."

Try making a living at it and following "the book" and then tell us how much money we make.

It holds up in court also to have documentation that backs the manufacturers warrantee time. The "book" has a little more added to the aftermarket to allow for rust,dirt and wear the factory tech dint encounter when they timed him doing the job.

If their lawyer comes up with a labor charge thats consistently lower than yours by checking the 2-3 othet labor guide times that are published and they prove you are gigging people you are done by your own means legally. In Cali its illegal to add time over the book price fwtw and the software thats sold there has to write across the ticket this labor time has been modified..

Bird,

You understand the reasoning behind no parts being put on thanks that is exactly right I said it myself earlier in this thread in a different way!

 

[Bird]

IIRC someone on here said that mechanics pay for that job pricing book. Well, if you're the company selling that book, wouldn't you want to be able to make the claim, "You'll make more money if you use our book."? Soooo ... they simply bump all of their true job estimates up a little ... or a lot! 1 hour (real world) jobs become 2-hour jobs, etc. And presto, the mechanic makes more money ... as long as customers tolerate the new higher fees anyway ... & if a customer questions you on anything, all you have to do is say, "Well the book says so."

I don't think that's the way it works.:laughing: I don't think the book publisher changes the numbers provided by the vehicle manufacturer. It they did, that would soon become common knowledge, the manufacturers would quit providing them numbers, and the mechanics would quit buying the book.

 

[Bird]

So many people play these games, trying to get the most $ the market will bear ... aka that the customer will pay.

And what "game" is that? We could have charged all individuals retail price, which is basically what all the stores do now. Would that have made you happier?:laughing:

And yes, we did want to stay in business. If we hadn't done it the way we did, we wouldn't have lasted any time at all, and those people who were buying our parts would have had to drove a long ways to get their parts and still probably pay more than we charged.

And in fact, I made a mistake in my earlier post. We didn't give individuals we knew the same price as the dealers and mechanics. We actually gave them 25% off retail instead of 40% off retail.

 

[beppington]

And what "game" is that? We could have charged all individuals retail price, which is basically what all the stores do now. Would that have made you happier?:laughing:

And yes, we did want to stay in business. If we hadn't done it the way we did, we wouldn't have lasted any time at all, and those people who were buying our parts would have had to drove a long ways to get their parts and still probably pay more than we charged.

I didn't mean to sound negative; just saying that folks "play the game" of charging what they think they can get, & sometimes that charge differs from one customer (type) to the next.

 

[Car Doc]

Thanks to 60 minutes everyone thinks they know how all shops operate and the zone for the way they advertize free code reading.

So you can make sure the shops are not gigging you thats total bs and is a disservice to the industry that feeds them. :laughing: