How is this not robbery?

[J_J]

I believe some of you are having a problem with what is right and fair.

If you estimate the job wrong whether by mistake, or just inflated the estimate for your own greed, when you tell the customer that it will take 3 hr to cut the field , and you need $150 up front. You then go and do the job in 1 hour. Seems like you deceived the customer into paying inflated charges.

Now the customer agreed to pay, because the labor rate per hour seem fair at $50 per hour.

I would expect or anybody should expect you to be cutting the field for 3 hours, or come back and give me a refund.

You actually cheated the customer out of $100 of his hard earned dollars. You did 1 hour of labor.

Theft by deception.

The customer actually thought you were being honest about the job time and labor rate, and paid for a 3 hour job. The tractor guy goes home smiling, and the customer is pissed because you deceived him. The customer will probably never ask you to do any work again, and will tell all his friends about your deceitful practice.

I pay book time like everyone else that can't so a particular job. I don't have to like it. I also will do my own work if possible and have the time and tools.

 

[aczlan]

Fixed rate shops will never see a dime of my money unless i am paying for a machine that does what is needed, (machining work etc).

I know a shop where I send vehicles, they charge $65/hr and use a flat rate book.
They have always done a great job, are very clear on what was wrong and clearly note what they did on the bill.
They are busy enough to book a week in advance.

I know of another shop who charges time and materials (time at $90/hr). He always ends up costing me more as it takes him longer than it should and I have had to send things back to him several times.

Guess where I have work done?

Aaron Z

 

[brin]

This thread has me really irked off.
Dealerships and repair shops are nothing but thieves.
I have only dealt with them limited amount of times, and always when i got stumped and couldn't fix the problem. Guess what, each and every time they charged me there going rates and still could not fix the problems. Each time I do that I get reminded that even with their schooling and high tech gadgetry they are still thieves! And each time I end up fixing the problems myself.
Fixed rate shops will never see a dime of my money unless i am paying for a machine that does what is needed, (machining work etc).
Time and material is only fair and if your very good I will pay higher hourly rates.
These fixed rate shops that have mechanics making good money are mostly hacks and although they may beat the clock for fixed rate repair most of them do piss poor quality work that wont last.
Basically in a nutshell "If you want it done and done right, you have to do it yourself".
Of course there are exceptions to this rule. But in my opinion I repeatedly see this as the only truth that holds.
This is of course my humble opinion only.

I agree with you...I have had the same experience..and like you and JJ...I try and do all repairs myself and get sick to my stomach when I have to deal with a Service manger at a car dealer...

 

[garcol]

I used to do refrigeration work, service tech to be exact. But gave that up once I figured out how the whole business ran on sales and the highest paid techs and the ones that got held onto weren't the ones trying to be honest. But in fact were the ones selling stuff to customers that they didn't really need. The company owners only wanted to make more money. I guess I cant blame them really.
I now help build aircraft and use my mechanical knowledge in that way.
I understand hourly billings and if a company does not include its overhead into that pricing they are not running a very good business.
But hourly billing is better than flat rate at keeping people honest and fair.

I think i am still searching for your reality.
Thank you for your opinion on my opinion.

 

[J_J]

JJ what makes you think the $45/hr is any more accurate than the 3 hr time?

As stated before, the $45 is hypothetical and is only used to work out what the shop would receive in a certain situation. I made the example simple in the fact that one man would install 7 wiper motors, each operation actually taken 1 hour to complete. The mechanics wage is there to work out the total charge for that operation. Of course nobody is going to install 7 wiper motors in 7 different F-150 . I showed what the mechanic made with his wages, and what the shop made for work not actually done.

Most of the arguments here are about the quote, and that someone agreed to pay it, not knowing that it was not an honest quote., but book quote.

This post really doesn't need to go on any more, as some are for and like the
book quote, and others dislike the operation as a whole.

We all have to pay someone for work not actually done. Just look at our congress.

 

[J_J]

If a moderator is reading this, how about closing this thread, It is turning into something undesirable.

I am the original poster.

 

[Bird]

I used to do refrigeration work, service tech to be exact. But gave that up once I figured out how the whole business ran on sales and the highest paid techs and the ones that got held onto weren't the ones trying to be honest. But in fact were the ones selling stuff to customers that they didn't really need. The company owners only wanted to make more money. I guess I cant blame them really.
I now help build aircraft and use my mechanical knowledge in that way.
I understand hourly billings and if a company does not include its overhead into that pricing they are not running a very good business.
But hourly billing is better than flat rate at keeping people honest and fair.

I think i am still searching for your reality.
Thank you for your opinion on my opinion.

Hourly billing is better than flat rate at keeping people honest and fair? Yep, I've seen those time and material contracts. They sure tend to get expensive. I'd rather know in advance what something is going to cost than give them carte blanche and hope I can afford the final bill. If a person wants to cheat you, he will, regardless of the billing method. And if he doesn't, he won't.

My point was you saying they're all thieves. I have no doubt that you actually know better than that, and if not, then I feel sorry for you. But I know there are people like that. My own maternal grandfather, for whom I was named, believed all cops were crooks and I know what very limited experience he based that belief on. So when he learned I was going to be an officer, he virtually disowned me; figured they were crooks and if I was going to join them, maybe I was to.

Well, I was fortunate enough to not only go up through the ranks in Dallas, but to attend the Southwestern Police Academy at SMU, the long course at the Traffic Insitute of Northwestern University, and the FBI National Academy in addition to a number of shorter courses and membership in some professional associations. Additionally, when I was commander of communications, we had officers from all around the globe come to see one of the first computer aided dispatch systems. The point being that I've met and became well acquainted with police officers from all over this country and all over the rest of the world.

Of course, there are crooks in law enforcement. We not only fired a number of them during my time on the department, we even sent some to prison. But I found that the vast majority of the officers are good people trying to do a difficult job.

And I know the same can be said for most of the mechanics.

 

[beppington]

Hey JJ - What if you had inquired about the bill, & their response had been, "Well, the last one I did took 5 hours & I could only charge him for 3 also, because we always go by the book. You could just as easily have been him instead. The 3 hour estimate is just an average. Some take more, some take less."

I don't know if this is their answer, just wondering what you would've thought about it.

 

[irwin]

Like Car Doc this thread is all about my business. Although it's very rare that a book time will be beaten by times 3, it happens. However the vast percentage will be closer to "right on, or very close" but, some book times are just ridiculous.. Engine swap = 6 hours in a 12 year old car.. right...

There are exceptions to every human rule. I had the pleasure of working with a truly master tech at a honda dealership, he was twice as fast as all the other techs.. incredible.. I've seen him replace a waterpump on an accord in 35 minutes.. almost no comebacks (I cant remember any).. That's a 2-3 hour job for just about any tech unless you do 3 or 4 in a row..I saw him remove an engine, take it completely apart, overhaul it, rplc piston, rings, rod+ main bearings, etc. in an eight hour day. BTW, he beat the book time by a whole lot.. any other tech at the time (ten in that shop) woulda took 2 1/2 + days.

JJ, sorry you're unhappy with the situation.. but I think it's more about your perception and you spending money you don't have like you used to (when you were working fulltime).. Your perception because they treated you like a friend and not a customer, and told you what the book said..and money ..well, just because it's easy to measure $45.00 against $135.00, big difference.

If I'm treating a customer like a friend, then I better be on good terms with the tech doing the job, cause I'll tell him it's my friend and we're going to bill accordingly. This tech was working on other cars while doing yours? He was flying that day. Most likely had a heavy day and was buzzing through the work.

If all the facts about overhead and good thorough workers following the book time doesn't ease your mind nothing will.

Stories like this make it hard for the auto business in general to stay afloat.. $45.00 per hour yikes! Might as well just close the shop up.. small businesses pay through the nose.. Auto service shops have to get and keep good people, and they pay state fee, insurance and pay and pay.

A truly gifted tech (one that can keep going, even working on more than one car at a time, and do the jobs right with little to no comebacks) is worth whatever I can pay him to stay with me.

 

[Elkins45]

We all have to pay someone for work not actually done. Just look at our congress.

On this we can whole-heartedly agree !!!

 

[Jim in ICT]

Would you have been more satisfied if it took the full three hours to do the repair and you sat there during the additional two hours? What's your time worth?
Estimates are written off of book time and a good mechanic should be able to shave some time off of that if he's to be successful.
If you contract to have a home built and are told it should take six months to build only to have it completed in 5-1/2, do you want a refund of the contractor's labor?

 

[J_J]

One should not pay for labor not done. What do some of you people not understand.

I don't care if some one is speedy or not. Time is money in most things, but you have to do the work for the time.

If I tell you I am going to cut your lawn for $35, that is what you expect? It might take me 30 min, or maybe 2 hours. You get your moneys worth when I finish.

There is no sense carrying this thread any further, as there are two sides to the situation, those that earn their money for book time worked, and the other side that pay unnecessarily for time not worked.

Over estimation of a job should not put money in your pocket, because you are wrong for doing it, but if things were done right, should leave money in my pocket, and you still make a profit..

That is the way it is, is just not a good answer.

 

[irwin]

One should not pay for labor not done. What do some of you people not understand.
..

That is the way it is, is just not a good answer.

Sorry but it's the right answer, you paid for the labor to do a job, the job was done..end of story, find another shop.

 

[Bird]

Sorry but it's the right answer, you paid for the labor to do a job, the job was done..end of story, find another shop.

J J, you're just going to have to find a slower mechanic. since you wanted that mechanic to take the full 3 hours to do the job.:laughing:

 

[Ford tractor]

J J, you're just going to have to find a slower mechanic. since you wanted that mechanic to take the full 3 hours to do the job.:laughing:

Now THAT'S funny!

 

[mostly_gas]

One should not pay for labor not done. What do some of you people not understand.

JJ I asked the question about 45/hr because I don't that is the cost + profit rate for that shop. The posters that indicated they had car repair indicated they charged a higher rate. The only way you could say how much you were over charged is to know what the REAL hourly rate is.

I have seen a number of situations where incorrect hourly rate and time to complete were shown to customer because they would balk at to high an hourly rate.

 

[J_J]

Go ahead and feel proud that you cheated someone. Maybe it will come around to you bite you in the butt sometime. Maybe they will cheat your wife or son , and you will say, wow they really did rip you all off.

At least, slower is more fair. I never asked for speedy service, but I got it, but not really, because the estimate was WRONG. He really did the avg job, in a reasonable time.

And he** yes, work the three hours I paid you to work. The estimate did not include loafing , lunch break, and general BS with the other guys, or working on other jobs. . I am paying for your estimated time, If you deceive someone about the time, shame on you. Maybe some will stick it to you big time. Maybe it has been done already.

Some of you guys think professional, educated, being a certified mechanic, gives you the right to cheat some one. I don't care how you ring it up, it is a form of cheating, and nobody likes it. You may wind up with that same kind of work attitude in other parts of your life, especially about fairness and honesty.

Get another estimate, Do it your self, Go have loafer Joe do the job down the street, take it to the dealer, all BS

If I offer a bonus for speedy service in whatever trade, does that give you an incentive to work harder, and if I say a penalty will be in effect if you exceed the time limit. Those are expectations that one can rely on if in writing.

Why ,on the bill, does it not say estimated hours, and actual time worked, if one is to be fair.

Most wages are based on timed worked, and some pay commission for certain things, and that seems fair. How about the people that fudge the time card, is that fair. NO.

Estimated time of 3 hrs @$50, = $150
Actual time worked of 1 hour, = $150----- NOT

 

[mostly_gas]

JJ
I have NOT cheated anyone, period
I can't see where you understand my point.
what is an appropriate rate per hour for a 1.5 million dollar machine with a replacement cost of 2.5 million? If you can't tell me that how can you tell me an fair hourly rate for that machine then how are you qualified to fiz the shop rate of you mechanic?

 

[J_J]

It is not hard to figure the shop rate if they charge you $150 for 3 hrs to do the job.

Yes, I do I understand about the system.

I know how you make your money, and a good idea of how the shop makes their money.

My observations of the job I had done were my observations, and I am sure a lot of people have experienced the same thing.

You all really don't have to explain about the repair business, be it automotive, air condition, or any other business that uses book time and estimates.

We all shop around for things we need done, but a lot of us will never know the skill and quality that went into a job. The finished job is just that. Most cases the repair is completed, but there are many nightmares about things that were supposed to be fixed and were not.

I did not say that you cheated.

What would you have charged to install a wiper motor in my truck, a 92 F-150?