Tractor Sizing How much HP do I really need?

[IslandTractor]

Hi Broke farmer John,

Thanks for the reply, but I do strongly disagree with that statement. High gear is for traveling, traveling includes hills. if you want to drive over the road to another property you need to be in high gear. If it can't climb a hill you can't drive over the road. Even at max speed it's still a slow moving obstacle on the road, forget low range. I hoped to be able to drive this over to my brother in laws house less than 1 mile away, but no way with this thing. I think you guys are imaging some mountain I'm trying to climb, it's steep, but not that bad. It's nothing out of the ordinary and this tractor feels over stressed in mid range dead empty.

OK, but aside the hills and Living in New England this is hard to do. This winter my truck got stuck while snow plowing so I pulled it out with the tractor. The tractor was on level, plowed, but still wet slippery pavement in low range (no impliment or additional weight) trying to pull out the truck. On slippery pavement in low range with only 1 front and 1 rear drive wheel since my diff flock does not work. The tractor would stall or nearly stall trying to pull out the truck meaning even in low range this tractor on wet snowy pavement this tractor has more traction than power. It did finally get the job done, but this tractor is clearly under powered! As far as I'm concerned, you should never stall in low gear, the tires should spin first, ESPECIALLY in the SNOW! I'm also used to having lots of power, from my 73 Camaro, 5.7 Hemi Jeep, 7.3 Turbo diesel F350. Even my log splitter has a 300CI 6 cylinder engine, so perhaps My idea of enough power does not align with everyone.

All of that being said, I can totally deal with these limitations and I love having the tractor. I think it's the perfect size for my needs. Heavy enough to have some decent lift, but still super maneuverable for a small piece of property like mine. Just add a turbo and it'd be great! I would love to try a L2501 on my driveway or perhaps I don't want to!

I can see that for some (?few) people that being able to travel up hills in high range would be important. Maybe Vermont or similar areas. But for most parts of the country and for most CUT uses there just aren't enough "big hills" to make that a major selection criteria. The vast majority of tractor work is done in low or medium range. Unless you know you will be traveling miles on hilly terrain regularly, I'd argue that your better off getting the tractor that is appropriately powered for the actual work you do and just accept that some road travel will be slow.

 

[MtnViewRanch]

Hi Broke farmer John,

Thanks for the reply, but I do strongly disagree with that statement. High gear is for traveling, traveling includes hills. if you want to drive over the road to another property you need to be in high gear. If it can't climb a hill you can't drive over the road. Even at max speed it's still a slow moving obstacle on the road, forget low range. I hoped to be able to drive this over to my brother in laws house less than 1 mile away, but no way with this thing. I think you guys are imaging some mountain I'm trying to climb, it's steep, but not that bad. It's nothing out of the ordinary and this tractor feels over stressed in mid range dead empty.

OK, but aside the hills and Living in New England this is hard to do. This winter my truck got stuck while snow plowing so I pulled it out with the tractor. The tractor was on level, plowed, but still wet slippery pavement in low range (no impliment or additional weight) trying to pull out the truck. On slippery pavement in low range with only 1 front and 1 rear drive wheel since my diff flock does not work. The tractor would stall or nearly stall trying to pull out the truck meaning even in low range this tractor on wet snowy pavement this tractor has more traction than power. It did finally get the job done, but this tractor is clearly under powered! As far as I'm concerned, you should never stall in low gear, the tires should spin first, ESPECIALLY in the SNOW! I'm also used to having lots of power, from my 73 Camaro, 5.7 Hemi Jeep, 7.3 Turbo diesel F350. Even my log splitter has a 300CI 6 cylinder engine, so perhaps My idea of enough power does not align with everyone.

All of that being said, I can totally deal with these limitations and I love having the tractor. I think it's the perfect size for my needs. Heavy enough to have some decent lift, but still super maneuverable for a small piece of property like mine. Just add a turbo and it'd be great! I would love to try a L2501 on my driveway or perhaps I don't want to!

What elevation are you at? Just by implying that it won't spin the tires in low range indicates that there is something wrong.

 

[Roger66]

I can see that for some (?few) people that being able to travel up hills in high range would be important. Maybe Vermont or similar areas. But for most parts of the country and for most CUT uses there just aren't enough "big hills" to make that a major selection criteria. The vast majority of tractor work is done in low or medium range. Unless you know you will be traveling miles on hilly terrain regularly, I'd argue that your better off getting the tractor that is appropriately powered for the actual work you do and just accept that some road travel will be slow.

Again it's not just the hills. Even in low range on level ground pulling my truck out of the snow it did not have enough power to exceed the traction of 1 front and 1 rear tire in the snow! That is seriously limited pulling power and clearly not "enough" IMO. Again certainly I can live within this tractors limitations! I was just trying to round out this thread with my experience after the purchase. The weird part is Brian above posted that the 1526 he drove zipped right up the hill. Starting to make me think there is something wrong with mine besides just the Diff Lock, although it appears to run perfectly. I guess I can't expect pulling power like my 7.3L Turbo diesel truck out of a 1.1L non turbo tractor. I've got an extra 460 Gas motor hanging around, wonder if it could fit? :laughing::laughing:

 

[Roger66]

What elevation are you at? Just by implying that it won't spin the tires in low range indicates that there is something wrong.

My elevation is a whopping 62 ft (19 m). So that's not it! Need to organize a tractor Dyno day!

 

[BrokeFarmerJohn]

My elevation is a whopping 62 ft (19 m). So that's not it! Need to organize a tractor Dyno day!

The not spinning tires was a red flag for me as well. If your absolutely sure you were in "Low Range" and not in "High Range" the tractor should break traction long before power. Even in mid range it should break traction unless you have loaded R2s with chains, it might not spin then lol.

Lots of guys have bragged about hills the 1526 zips right up in high range where the 1533s and 1538s have to drop down to low range.

A 26hp tractor won't be balls to the walls instant power also, it might "feel" weak but in the tractoring world does quite well.

As far as not spinning rubber, low range is like a tank crawling, takes a lot to bog down a tractor in low.

 

[BrokeFarmerJohn]

Idk if this really proves anything but you can see the rears breaking traction on dry pavement. On a EMax 26

Oversized lawnmower? Not the eMax 22... that's the power of Mahindra! - YouTube

The way the video jumps, looks like it took a few attempts lol.

 

[Roger66]

I'm really starting to think there is a problem with mine. I called my dealer last night and he suspected there might be a fuel restriction, either filter or blockage in the tank. The tractor is new with only 15 hours. I pulled the filter last night and it looks clean. I'll likely need to haul it back to have them check it out. My dealer is 100 miles away so I'd prefer to prove or better solve the issue myself. It seems to diagnose this I would need to insert a fuel pressure gauge and check the fuel pressure under load vs at idle. Any ideas where the best place to insert a gauge would be in the fuel system to check this myself? I'm thinking the best place would be right before the injection pump.

Again the tractor appears to run perfectly. It revs up to max no problem, but when it gets a heavy load on it the revs quickly drop way down and nearly stalls the tractor. It could be a fuel restriction where it starves for fuel when it really needs it most under heavy load. This problem would make it appear as a well running, but weak engine.

Thanks!

 

[coldsteelva]

My 25hp MF GC1720 will break traction in 4WD with R4s and all the similar size models should do so as well.

 

[Musdalen]

My 25hp MF GC1720 will break traction in 4WD with R4s and all the similar size models should do so as well.

I'm not really sure the point of all of these types of statements. ALL of the tractors I have used, with all their different tire configurations will "break traction". They were all considerably more capable than any 25 hp tractor.

 

[coldsteelva]

I'm not really sure the point of all of these types of statements. ALL of the tractors I have used, with all their different tire configurations will "break traction". They were all considerably more capable than any 25 hp tractor.

On a given surface, if locked in position, any tractor should be able to spin the rubber. Above it is stated that with no load, this tractor does not have enough torque to spin the rubber.

 

[quotejso]

the L2501 is large displacement so I would guesstimate it tis making large torque. Hp is fun but torque gets the job done.

 

[Roger66]

I did some tests today and I measured my driveway and at it's steepest point it's 11.4 degrees, most of it is 10 degrees. In high gear even with a running start the tractor completely stalls out and dies on this hill with the pedal floored. It will go up the hill in mid range empty, but it's working and won't go up the hill in mid range with a trailer full of firewood. I called my dealer and he hopped on another brand new one and it could not climb his loading dock in high gear so other new 1526 tractors seem to behave similar, indicating mine might be "normal". One good thing I noticed is that I can climb the hill in high range if I back way off the hydro pedal meaning I don't need to stop and change ranges, just back off on the pedal input. The result is the same however, this engine is too weak for this size tractor. I can certainly manage with 25 HP, but it's not enough and I need to learn how to live within the tractor's limitations. So much for "Push More. Pull More. Lift More."

 

[IslandTractor]

I did some tests today and I measured my driveway and at it's steepest point it's 11.4 degrees, most of it is 10 degrees. In high gear even with a running start the tractor completely stalls out and dies on this hill with the pedal floored. It will go up the hill in mid range empty, but it's working and won't go up the hill in mid range with a trailer full of firewood. I called my dealer and he hopped on another brand new one and it could not climb his loading dock in high gear so other new 1526 tractors seem to behave similar, indicating mine might be "normal". One good thing I noticed is that I can climb the hill in high range if I back way off the hydro pedal meaning I don't need to stop and change ranges, just back off on the pedal input. The result is the same however, this engine is too weak for this size tractor. I can certainly manage with 25 HP, but it's not enough and I need to learn how to live within the tractor's limitations. So much for "Push More. Pull More. Lift More."

Sounds like you are a bit unfamiliar with how HST works. You would never "mash" the pedal to the floor to get more power when the tractor slows going up a hill. You'll get more power with a middle setting. You will go faster on flat when you mash the pedal but when there is resistance you need to back off not push further. Different than gas.

 

[ericm979]

The pedal should not be floored for this. It's not a gas pedal. The farther you push the pedal the higher the gear ratio. What you're doing when you do that is exactly like putting a car in high gear and trying to drive up a hill. It's not the car's fault if it can't make it, it's operator error. The fact that it works when you back off the pedal shows that it's working as designed. It is normal for HSTs

 

[Roger66]

The pedal should not be floored for this. It's not a gas pedal. The farther you push the pedal the higher the gear ratio. What you're doing when you do that is exactly like putting a car in high gear and trying to drive up a hill. It's not the car's fault if it can't make it, it's operator error. The fact that it works when you back off the pedal shows that it's working as designed. It is normal for HSTs

I'm not sure what you drive, but If your car empty could not climb a mountain in high gear and maintain highway speed and actually stalled completely out, I think you'd be really unhappy with your car, I know I would. I know my pickup has no problem holding 70+ MPH in cruse control all day long in overdrive with a large RV in tow up and down the smokey mountains of VA on my way down to the Bristol NASCAR race. I expect this to manage 10ish MPH up a 11 degree driveway. Clearly my expectations seem to be unrealistic in the tractor world. In the past when the truck got stuck in the snow, I'd pull it out with my Jeep easily. I thought the tractor would have more pulling power given the low gear ratio & larger tires, but with the lack of power my Jeep can easily out pull this tractor. I'll just have to use the Jeep or the truck when I have real work to do, Very disappointing.

 

[IslandTractor]

I'm not sure what you drive, but If your car empty could not climb a mountain in high gear and maintain highway speed and actually stalled completely out, I think you'd be really unhappy with your car, I know I would. I know my pickup has no problem holding 70+ MPH in cruse control all day long in overdrive with a large RV in tow up and down the smokey mountains of VA on my way down to the Bristol NASCAR race. I expect this to manage 10ish MPH up a 11 degree driveway. Clearly my expectations seem to be unrealistic in the tractor world. In the past when the truck got stuck in the snow, I'd pull it out with my Jeep easily. I thought the tractor would have more pulling power given the low gear ratio & larger tires, but with the lack of power my Jeep can easily out pull this tractor. I'll just have to use the Jeep or the truck when I have real work to do, Very disappointing.

I think you are missing the point(s). The HST transmission is not like a car transmission. Tractors are not cars. They are not designed for high speed travel on roads. And, you are comparing a 4000lb ?200+hp Jeep 4wd to a 25hp small frame tractor???? Maybe you should have done some homework before making a purchase.

 

[sd455dan]

I'm not sure what you drive, but If your car empty could not climb a mountain in high gear and maintain highway speed and actually stalled completely out, I think you'd be really unhappy with your car, I know I would. I know my pickup has no problem holding 70+ MPH in cruse control all day long in overdrive with a large RV in tow up and down the smokey mountains of VA on my way down to the Bristol NASCAR race. I expect this to manage 10ish MPH up a 11 degree driveway. Clearly my expectations seem to be unrealistic in the tractor world. In the past when the truck got stuck in the snow, I'd pull it out with my Jeep easily. I thought the tractor would have more pulling power given the low gear ratio & larger tires, but with the lack of power my Jeep can easily out pull this tractor. I'll just have to use the Jeep or the truck when I have real work to do, Very disappointing.

Do they offer that tractor in a manual trans version?

I agree with the other posters that Hydrostatics work just the opposite of a gas pedal.
But do agree with you that flooring it probably shouldn't kill the engine though... At least when I had my hydro skid steer (it would just bog flooring it- but not die)

To increase torque you reduce the pedal, to the point that it maintains RPMs in the range best matched to the area yo are working. Unfortunately you may need to operate it in the next lower range, Can't hurt to try.
In some cases and for some people a manual trans may be a better fit. They do get more of the engines power to the ground and also don't need to be run at a higher throttle position for some types of work.

One other thought would be to see if the tractor can be dynoed-just to be sure, that it is in fact making it's advertised power.

Hope this works out so that you will be able to enjoy your tractor

 

[IslandTractor]

Put just about any HST tractor up against a big tree and floor it in high range. It will stall. In low range it might spin its wheels but in high range it will stall.

 

[sd455dan]

Put just about any HST tractor up against a big tree and floor it in high range. It will stall. In low range it might spin its wheels but in high range it will stall.

Sorry Island, never tried that but you are right- If I had run it up against an immovable object I am sure it would have spun or killed it.
I was just thinking of pushing snow when I first got it and how it would keep running but dog if to much forward hand control ( dual steering levers)was being input while moving.
Although I do seem to remember a Kioti? thread where the relief pressure was set to low and the tractor would just bog down and not kill the engine or spin the tires IIRC?

 

[IslandTractor]

Sorry Island, never tried that but you are right- If I had run it up against an immovable object I am sure it would have spun or killed it.
I was just thinking of pushing snow when I first got it and how it would keep running but dog if to much forward hand control ( dual steering levers)was being input while moving.
Although I do seem to remember a Kioti? thread where the relief pressure was set to low and the tractor would just bog down and not kill the engine or spin the tires IIRC?

I stall my Kioti occasionally when digging into a pile of dirt or even bushhogging if I'm not at PTO speed and moving too fast. Diesels certainly have more grunt than gas but they will stall. Nice thing about HST is that you have sufficient warning in the change of engine sound that releasing the pedal pressure usually allows the engine to spool back up again without a stall.