Hydraulics partially not working at high RPM

[Th french mechanic]

Hello
I'm French and I own a 69' Ford 3000 tractor made in Belgium. I've recently mounted a Quicke 2200E front loader on it.
The hydraulic spool valve has a remote joystick. From the beginning, I've been having a weird problem, at idle, the loader works normally but is quite slow (30 sec from down to up), and if you press the pedal a little to increase the RPMs, the loader stops working but the lift operates normally. Last Saturday, I borrowed a hydraulic pressure tester to check if the "security valve" was opening at the right pressure. It was a little low, it is now set to approximately 165 bars (2400 psi).
Every time I increase the RPMs a little, the loader stops working but the lift operates normally.
Hydraulic oil was drained 10 hours ago, the return filter has been changed, and the spool valve is brand new and is manufactured by Badestnost. On the right side of the tractor, there are 2 hoses, the little one was cut when the clutch was replaced. The closest to the pump end goes to the Pressure plug, the other end goes to the carry-over plug. A return line was installed.
Please tell me if I'm correct, If the RPMs are higher, there should be more flow and so the loader should operate faster.
Do you have any idea about what is going on?
Thanks

 

[Gordon Gould]

I can't help you but here is another thread posted about a week ago with a slow problematic Quickie Loader.....Maybe the two can get it figured out.

Quickie loader, very slow. WHY?

On a 1997 Kubota M5400 with 800 hours. Curl up/down is slow, lift is slow, lower is normal speed, breakout force seems weak too. No leaks or leakdowns. Changing fluid/filters didn't help. I just inherited this very clean tractor and don't know a lot about hydraulics. I presume I should...

www.tractorbynet.com

gg

 

[Harry in Ky]

Your diagram as drawn looks like it SHOULD work. However, in the photos I can't see the three lines from the loader valve to the tractor. The "carry over" line you mentioned. Is that a power beyond fitting mounted in the N port of the valve? Second question. I only see one work port being used on the first spool of the loader valve. Is that because that circuit has only single acting cylinders? If so, the valve is no doubt set for double acting cylinders and only using one port will cause problems. Another question. The relief valve you adjusted (assuming that's what you called a security valve). Was that the one on the loader valve or the one in the tractor?

 

[oldnslo]

What happens if you increase the engine speed and move the lever to raise the loader very slowly? If it raises slowly move the lever to raise loader faster. If suddenly stops moving I would suspect one of the quick disconnects is faulty.

I presume the “lift” is the 3 point arms on the rear of the tractor. Do these work if you try to raise the loader at the time as the lift?

 

[Th french mechanic]

Your diagram as drawn looks like it SHOULD work. However, in the photos I can't see the three lines from the loader valve to the tractor. The "carry over" line you mentioned. Is that a power beyond fitting mounted in the N port of the valve? Second question. I only see one work port being used on the first spool of the loader valve. Is that because that circuit has only single acting cylinders? If so, the valve is no doubt set for double acting cylinders and only using one port will cause problems. Another question. The relief valve you adjusted (assuming that's what you called a security valve). Was that the one on the loader valve or the one in the tractor?

The photo is old and at that moment i missed a fitting. Now the 3 lines are connected to the valve. I do have a spécial fitting for the Carry over, which i bought with the valve. The cylinders which go up and down are single acting. The "thing" in the valve was changed for a simple acting one.
It is the one on the valve. It has a little orange cap on the photo.
Thanks for your help.

 

[Th french mechanic]

What happens if you increase the engine speed and move the lever to raise the loader very slowly? If it raises slowly move the lever to raise loader faster. If suddenly stops moving I would suspect one of the quick disconnects is faulty.

I presume the “lift” is the 3 point arms on the rear of the tractor. Do these work if you try to raise the loader at the time as the lift?

I'll try that on Saturday.
The female quick couplers are brand new. The mâle are the loader's original ones.
They do not work when using the joystick. I think it is normal because the valve takes all the flow from the pump, stopping the flow from the Carry over port.

 

[oldnslo]

Is there a vent or air bleed on the rod end of the lift cylinders? If no is there a plug you can remove to see if that end of the cylinder is full of oil potentially stopping or slowing the lift?

 

[Th french mechanic]

Is there a vent or air bleed on the rod end of the lift cylinders? If no is there a plug you can remove to see if that end of the cylinder is full of oil potentially stopping or slowing the lift?

I don't think there is a vent, I'll check that on Saturday. The dumping double-acting cylinder also seems to act slowly, so the lift cylinders shouldn't have that problem.

On the Quicke parts view, I cannot see any kind of bleeder

 

[Th french mechanic]

I've done some calculation about the theoric lifting speed.
The cylinder has a stroke of 58cm the diameter is 7cm
The hydraulic flow is supposed to be about 22 l per min (5gal/min)
There are 2 cylinders
2*58*3.5*3.5*3.14= 4.5 liters
4.5/22*60=12.5 seconds. For the moment it takes 30 secs to go from down to up
With the loss, it should be between 15 and 20 sec at high rpm.
The doc says 4.8 gpm at 2000 rpm
At idle (1000 rpm), 2.4 gpm = 10 l/min. =At idle, it should take about 30 sec. The hydraulic pump flow is correct.

 

[oldnslo]

Your math all seems correct on calculated lift times. But if I am understanding correctly you still cannot raise the loader with engine RPM above idle. Is that correct?

If yes can you install your pressure gauge in the pressure line to the loader valve. Watch the gauge as you raise the loader with engine at idle and then with increased engine RPM.
Doing this will let you you know if something is suddenly flow shifting and blocking flow to the loader.

Try same test with curl dump to see if they operate in similar fashion.

 

[Harry in Ky]

The photo is old and at that moment i missed a fitting. Now the 3 lines are connected to the valve. I do have a spécial fitting for the Carry over, which i bought with the valve. The cylinders which go up and down are single acting. The "thing" in the valve was changed for a simple acting one.
It is the one on the valve. It has a little orange cap on the photo.
Thanks for your help.

Sorry but as I see it the "thing" in the valve with an orange cap is a relief valve adjustment. It has nothing to do with single acting cylinders. If the valve is now plumbed as your diagram shows, and the supply line from the pump goes to the loader valve first, with nothing between the pump and the valve, then the problem has to be either the valve or the pump. I think you need to revisit the valve and that work port with the plug in it.

Next question. The loader doesn't work when the engine revs are raised. Is that both loader functions or just the raise and lower?

 

[Th french mechanic]

Sorry but as I see it the "thing" in the valve with an orange cap is a relief valve adjustment. It has nothing to do with single acting cylinders. If the valve is now plumbed as your diagram shows, and the supply line from the pump goes to the loader valve first, with nothing between the pump and the valve, then the problem has to be either the valve or the pump. I think you need to revisit the valve and that work port with the plug in it.

Next question. The loader doesn't work when the engine revs are raised. Is that both loader functions or just the raise and lower?

To convert it from double to single acting, I changed that

The pressure relief valve was adjusted last week with a pressure gauge. The 3-point lift works perfectly, and according to my calculations, the flow is correct at low rpm (I don't know about high rpm), and the pressure is correct. Before digging in the valve, I'll test the quick couplers and see what's going on about pressure and flow when I increase the revs. I'll do that on Saturday and will tell you the results
I think both do not work, I'll test that again and take a video.
Have a good day

 

[Th french mechanic]

Hello
I've attached my trailer to the tractor and tested the hydraulic dump, the problem is the same, after 1200 rpms it stops flowing.
I think the only thing left to do is replace the old pump with a new bigger one.
I've seen some kits on the internet. If you're experienced with ford 3000's hydraulic pump replacement please share your experience.
Bye

 

[zzvyb6]

Oil supply line crimped or collapsed ? Try removing the cylinder connections and drain their flow into a bucket just to see if it's supply, volume, or some other flow restriction in the system. Sounds like the pump is starved for fluid. I also saw this symptom on my 4000 and a Kubota caused by use of high viscosity oil. Switched to JD Hyguard-Low Vis (ISO 32) and problems disappeared. Had to drain the cylinders, too. Most oils are between 46 & 68 viscosity rating.

 

[Th french mechanic]

Hi
THe oil is Fuchs agrifarm utto mp AGRIFARM UTTO MP | Automotive lubricants | FUCHS LUBRIFIANT FRANCE S.A.
The pipes aren't damaged. The suction filter seemed ok when I disassembled the lift.

 

[Th french mechanic]

The oil specs are :
Density at 15 °C DIN 51757 0.880 g/ml
SAE Grade SAE J300 10W-30 SAE J306 75W-80
Kinematic viscosity 40°C DIN 51562-1 64 mm²/s
Kinematic viscosity 100°C DIN 51562-1 9.54 mm²/s
Viscosity Index DIN ISO 2909 130
Pour Point DIN ISO 3016 -42 °C
Product dyeing DIN 10964 none
Is 130 the number supposed to be between 49 and 68?

 

[oldnslo]

Hello
I've attached my trailer to the tractor and tested the hydraulic dump, the problem is the same, after 1200 rpms it stops flowing.
I think the only thing left to do is replace the old pump with a new bigger one.
I've seen some kits on the internet. If you're experienced with ford 3000's hydraulic pump replacement please share your experience.
Bye

If the lift (3 point) is working it probably is not the pump since same pump supplies flow to both circuits.

You state flow stops at 1200 RPM. Does pressure also drop at this time?

 

[Th french mechanic]

If the lift (3 point) is working it probably is not the pump since same pump supplies flow to both circuits.

You state flow stops at 1200 RPM. Does pressure also drop at this time?

Last week it was colder, and the lift seemed to be working ok.
But yesterday, it was warmer the lift stopped working above 1200 Rpm, as my trailer lift cylinder and as the loader.
I will borrow the flow and pressure measurement tool to my mechanic on Saturday.

 

[jigs_n_fixtures]

Sound like: a collapsing inlet line to the pump; or, an air leak on the suction side; or, something floating in the reservoir which lifts up and blocks the inlet as the flow increases. Most probably something happening before the fluid gets to the pump.

 

[aircommuter]

First thing is I am believer in analytical diagnosis. But since I can’t do that in the internet I just going to throw out a guess.
Maybe a hose with a torn lining that acts like a flap when the oil flow speeds up.