Hydro or Shuttle for the long haul?

[rbstern]

They say that hindsight is 20/20. I see now that I should have stopped worrying about emissions and I should have bought the right power level to begin with. Now I'm facing two choices: Keep my tractor and just get used to working slow, or take a $1,500 immediate loss plus the additional cost of the new tractor to trade it back in for more horsepower. Sigh.... What really gets me is that this tractor makes 17 PTO horsepower which I believe is the lowest in the entire class of tractors in this size. In the future I want to run a 72" mower and I don't know if that would even work, especially climbing these hills we have.

With that tidbit of info, I can comfortably say this isn't about hydro vs. shuttle shift.

You need the 40hp machine for your intended use. A mower that size will tip the scales at 600 to 800 lbs, and need a bunch of oomph from the PTO. Pulling it uphill won't help. Depending on the hills, you might even need to be considering a frame size larger, for stability's sake.

 

[aczlan]

With that tidbit of info, I can comfortably say this isn't about hydro vs. shuttle shift.

You need the 40hp machine for your intended use. A mower that size will tip the scales at 600 to 800 lbs, and need a bunch of oomph from the PTO. Pulling it uphill won't help. Depending on the hills, you might even need to be considering a frame size larger, for stability's sake.

I agree. We have a Kubota B7500 which has 16PTO HP in a smaller frame than the OP's, it struggles with a 60" deck (either finish or brush hog) in thick grass and the 60" bush hog is too heavy to leave the top link hooked up and keep the front wheels on the ground.

Aaron Z

 

[gladehound]

Regardless of HST or gear, I think most people buy to light a tractor with too little HP. They usually find out after the sale when realizing the tractor can't run an implement well or has limited hydraulic lift. There are those who want light weight to avoid ground compaction but I don't think that's most the TBN crowd. I started with 20hp and ended up with 45hp. Night and day difference. 45hp is a nice amount in a gear tractor for general utility work.

So I'd generally recommend to anyone to go a size bigger than you think you need both in frame / weight and hp.

Regarding HST vs gear, I have mostly gear experience. When I bought my most recent tractor I test drove a 40hp Kioti HST and a 45 hp kioti hydraulic shuttle. The responsiveness was night and day. The hydraulic shuttle could switch directions very quickly and if you tried to match that with the HST it would bog and stall. The gear tractor would come up to speed quicker in the new direction too. To me, it felt like I'd need at least a 60hp HST to have the feel and quick direction changes of the 45hp hydraulic shuttle. I only have 500 hours on my hydraulic shuttle so I can't speak to durability yet. But I love the way it works for what I do which is mostly loader work with long transports to dump. No doubt HST is better for finesse work. But I don't have much of that.

A friend was using my hydraulic shuttle for a while and he also has a 40+ hp HST. He commented that my gear tractor would pull a load up hill way faster than his HST.

If you consider the design of gear vs HST, durability will depend on how you use it. For high hp long pulls gear will be more durable because it produces less heat. For low hp finesse work, HST will be more durable because you aren't slipping clutch. So I'd say it depends on your intended use.

 

[mred2]

I have a manual shuttle. But I love driving a hydraulic shuttle. Proven tech for a lot of years.

 

[paulfun9]

These gear/hydro discussions just leave me scratching my head.

If you need X horsepower at the PTO, then buy a tractor with that HP PTO, gear or hydro.

I hear you guys saying well, there is a loss to the drive wheels. True, but that is highly dependent on soil conditions and tire (traction). Most cases on SCUTs and CUTs, the power transferred to move the tractor forward is limited by traction. So, most won't see or feel more overall power between the two drive lines.

Anyone who drives up any hill loaded or not will immediately notice the power difference.

 

[aczlan]

Anyone who drives up any hill loaded or not will immediately notice the power difference.

That is why you buy enough HP to overcome the power lost with a HST vs a gear tractor.
So, buy a 30HP gear or a 35HP HST, you will have the same amount of power to the wheels or the PTO.
There was someone on here who is looking at going from a 25HP to a 40HP in the same frame size because the 25HP doesn't have enough power to go up a steep hill in high.

Aaron Z

 

[Blue Mule]

After excessive thought, research, phone calls, and more thought, I've decided to keep the tractor I have. For $6,000 I guess I'll just learn to work more slowly and use the money for other needs around the property. For the time being I won't be mowing with it. That'll come in the future. If one day in the future I buy an attachment or implement and the tractor won't handle it, I'll load the tractor up and go trade it in at that point in time.

In other words, rather than assuming/anticipating problems, I'm going to wait until I reach a problem with this tractor and then rectify it. Perhaps this will be the first time in my life I do something smart.

2,600+ RPM all day er' day!

 

[gladehound]

That is why you buy enough HP to overcome the power lost with a HST vs a gear tractor.
So, buy a 30HP gear or a 35HP HST, you will have the same amount of power to the wheels or the PTO.
There was someone on here who is looking at going from a 25HP to a 40HP in the same frame size because the 25HP doesn't have enough power to go up a steep hill in high.

Aaron Z

I've seen 20hp gear tractors that could pull as hard as 40hp HST tractors. Not sure 5hp will make up the difference. If you are looking for equal pulling power from an HST compared to gear, you're spending a vastly different amount of money. I'd love to see these small tractors rated for draw bar power and not just PTO power. That would be eye opening.

 

[the old grind]

... 2,600+ RPM all day er' day!

PTO hp is typically rated at PTO RPM vs max. Did we learn what mower was planned? I suggest rear vs mid. I sold a 60" mid for $150 and never missed the off & on fuss.

I had the flail for one season and sold my BH for $100. If I could have only one mower it'd be the flail, no wait I made that decision. Wide cut for hp, mulches, and hammers gives a decent finish, about like dull blades on the ZTR. btw, my PTO rpm is ~2450 but I run the 54" flail at 2200, always mow in LR, and use plenty of pedal .. short of full stomp. Not going back over 'hay-rows' like I had to with the BH shortens heavier or less frequent mowing time quite a bit.

 

[Blue Mule]

After excessive thought, research, phone calls, and more thought, I've decided to keep the tractor I have. For $6,000 I guess I'll just learn to work more slowly and use the money for other needs around the property. For the time being I won't be mowing with it. That'll come in the future. If one day in the future I buy an attachment or implement and the tractor won't handle it, I'll load the tractor up and go trade it in at that point in time.

In other words, rather than assuming/anticipating problems, I'm going to wait until I reach a problem with this tractor and then rectify it. Perhaps this will be the first time in my life I do something smart.

2,600+ RPM all day er' day!

Oh, and after using nothing but gear tractors all my life, I can honestly say that hydro was the right choice this time. After now using it for a while there are so many situations where I just LOVE the hydro trans. It's so much better in so many ways I can't even begin to list. Probably will never have a gear trans ever again. Even the simple things like hopping on and starting the engine; With the hydro I literally just turn the key. With the gear tractors there are 3 to 4 steps you must take before it'll allow the starter motor to turn. If I hop off real fast to grab something I can do it without setting any levers or pedals. On the gear tractor neutral will result in rolling so the park brake has to be set or an implement has to be dropped. The hydro just makes using the tractor so much less of a pain in day to day operations.

I can see now why most tractor dealers around here don't even order gear drive tractors anymore. They all usually keep ONE on the lot for the occasional guy who just wants to run a plow. But everything else they order is hydro.