Hydro or Shuttle for the long haul?

[the old grind]

Additional thoughts on HST pumps/motors. Both components have 'swash' plates and a limit of the angle each tilts to pump or go. If the 40hp has different limits therein, perhaps that is a difference shown by different part numbers with the angles lesser so the smaller engine won't stall.

Also, it's easy to want to avoid emissions BS, but if a guy bought a 40-45hp tractor to do 25-30 hp (not here, of course) and loafs it doing light tasks he's begging for issues, say by keeping rpm below 2,000 as many of us do & the emissions stuff won't work right.

We don't need to work 'em hard, just run 'em hot enough and long enough for the systems to work as designed and by doing tractor work vs light hauling, etc. Gas engines manage short runs and incomplete warmups fine. With a diesel I like sessions to be 1/2 hr min and not spent loafing. IMO, some guys who experience frequent regens may be doing too little with too much engine. Without the emissions stuff they'd be wet-stacking and might not notice that. With 'em we get new posts regularly.

I bought one with a bum thermostat, temp gauge barely made it from blue to green, and the pipe was awful sooty until I replaced the part. It doesn't take much to 'dirty-up' an exhaust system or load up a 'soot cooker'.

 

[pmsmechanic]

On the Workmaster 25 the HST pump part # is MT40365037.

ON the Workmaster 40 the HST pump part # is MT40365036.

There is really not much more information given other than technical drawings. The two pumps look similar but have parts that are different.

Those different part numbers could be as simple as an adjustment to the relief pressures. The Workdmaster 40 would run higher pressures due to extra HP.

Your not getting it! By saying parts look similar I'm saying that you can see that they are designed by the same engineering team. Inlet and outlet is in the same general area. Swish plate covers in the same general area. When I say that parts are different I mean parts are different.

 

[the old grind]

Different is different, so yes. If the pump is different, why not the drive motor as well? (got part numbers for them too?)

I'll stick to thinking its likely the swash plates of both that differ, esp if ranges & gearing of 25 & 40 are the same.

 

[pmsmechanic]

On the Workmaster 25 the HST pump part # is MT40365037.

ON the Workmaster 40 the HST pump part # is MT40365036.

There is really not much more information given other than technical drawings. The two pumps look similar but have parts that are different.

Different is different, so yes. If the pump is different, why not the drive motor as well? (got part numbers for them too?)

I'll stick to thinking its likely the swash plates of both that differ, esp if all gearing of 25 & 40 is the same.

I looked for a drive motor part number but was unable to locate one, so I came to the conclusion that it was all one unit. I could be wrong but I don't know for sure. There was no break down of internal parts. It was just a complete unit.

If you want to continue digging google "New Holland parts diagrams", go to their web site and start comparing. I'm interested but not that interested.

My major conclusion out of the experience was that John Deere still has by far the best parts diagrams.

 

[Blue Mule]

Would you test drive a truck or geared tractor with std engine, then drive it around the block in high gear to gauge its suitability? I'd start out in lower gear, one that I'd tow with. IMO, some folks should avoid HST.

Again, my thinking here was that if the tractor will use high range when it's needed, then low and medium will be just fine when they're needed. My 25 HP tractor will pull a house in low range. The problem is I don't want to be capped at 3 MPH all the time. A 3-range trans does me no good if I can only use 2 of them. So, that's why I tested the 40 HP in high range. I felt that doing so would show me the best apples to apples comparison between the two power levels.

The Mitsubishi engine in these New Holland and LS units is de-rated. It's really a 29HP engine (at 2800rpm, IIRC). The eletronic RPM limiter keeps the HP to the 25HP requirement for Tier IV emissions.

I disagree with your assessment. I think these motors are actually a good solution for somone who wants to avoid emissions complexity and doesn't need high gear for anything other than moving the tractor unloaded. My 26hp Yanmar will lose RPM going uphill in the highest gear setting, if it's carrying a heavy implement. And that's without a loader, in a lighter frame than the LS/NH. Like the LS/NH, the Yanmar is capable of excellent work output in low and mid-range gears. It's just the nature of the beast with a small tractor and small engine. It's a trade-off that looks worse when mated to a hydro transmission, which is forcing you to give up about 10% of your horsepower, when you don't have much to spare. I specifically choose shuttle shift for that very reason.

If I'm buying a 40hp tractor, in my situation, it's for more lift, more pull, more stability. Not for travel speed. In your situation, you want to move the tractor faster on hills. So 25hp is not the right answer for you, and you're doing what you need to do to remedy that.

I sure wish there was a way to remove that RPM limiter on this tractor. It pegs out at 2,680 on my dash display. If I could get to 2,800 it may actually make a noticeable difference. Oh well.

They say that hindsight is 20/20. I see now that I should have stopped worrying about emissions and I should have bought the right power level to begin with. Now I'm facing two choices: Keep my tractor and just get used to working slow, or take a $1,500 immediate loss plus the additional cost of the new tractor to trade it back in for more horsepower. Sigh.... What really gets me is that this tractor makes 17 PTO horsepower which I believe is the lowest in the entire class of tractors in this size. In the future I want to run a 72" mower and I don't know if that would even work, especially climbing these hills we have.

 

[bearthebruce]

@Blue Mule - If you are on hills, 17 HP is not going to run the mower on hilly terrain. I have 26hp at the PTO on the Massey and it is just adequate to run the field at about 2mph with a 60" bush hog - while climbing hills - engine at 2300 rpm to produce 540 at the PTO. I cant imagine trying a 72" with only 17 hp.. Yes, i suppose if you go really slow you can get it done.

We do a 12 acre meadow in between 10 and 12 hours depending the growth/type of growth. We do it twice a year. We are thinking about a bigger tractor to make this faster. Right now we push to be done in one day. Would be nice to reduce that if possible. But, given the hills, we are not convinced bigger will = faster. Used to be that a contractor mowed this field. He had a much bigger JD - don't know which model. It usually took him over an 8 hour day. He didn't know the field as well as we do - so there is that.

All that to say, 17 hp at the PTO on a hilly terrain is not going to support a 72" mower IMHO. But as others have said on this forum, you do what works for you.

 

[Blue Mule]

@Blue Mule - If you are on hills, 17 HP is not going to run the mower on hilly terrain. I have 26hp at the PTO on the Massey and it is just adequate to run the field at about 2mph with a 60" bush hog - while climbing hills - engine at 2300 rpm to produce 540 at the PTO. I cant imagine trying a 72" with only 17 hp.. Yes, i suppose if you go really slow you can get it done.

We do a 12 acre meadow in between 10 and 12 hours depending the growth/type of growth. We do it twice a year. We are thinking about a bigger tractor to make this faster. Right now we push to be done in one day. Would be nice to reduce that if possible. But, given the hills, we are not convinced bigger will = faster. Used to be that a contractor mowed this field. He had a much bigger JD - don't know which model. It usually took him over an 8 hour day. He didn't know the field as well as we do - so there is that.

All that to say, 17 hp at the PTO on a hilly terrain is not going to support a 72" mower IMHO. But as others have said on this forum, you do what works for you.

Good info. Thank you sir.

 

[the old grind]

By all means, with tasks/plans now better understood IMO the 40hp option would be about right.

 

[JethroB]

Blue Mule, I like the direction with your considering more HP. If it were me I don't think I'd be satisfied with the the smaller one. Buyers remorse would always be nagging at me. I don't think a 6 foot mower will clip much more than light weeds or brush with 17 pto HP. 4 foot seems a better match. Tail wagging the dog. My 45 pto hp gets tested cutting thick Bahai grass with a 6 footer. The joke is you can see sparks when mowing Bahai at night.

 

[Blue Mule]

Well, I assumed going back to my selling dealer that I just bought it from would work out the best for allowing a trade up, but that doesn't seem to be the case. They're not offering me any more for it than dealers of other brands. I guess it's true...as soon as you drive off the lot it's a "used" tractor!

So...I'm back to square one and I'm shopping everything again. My next stop will be the closest Kioti dealer. They're supposed to be getting a new CK4010 hydro in by Saturday. And Kioti is doing 0% financing for up to 84 months which is unheard of. Might at least be worth a look.