Hydro vs Gear Trans?
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MChalkley
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Rat - I've driven a couple dozen different kinds of tractors, too, and I understand your point. I plan on restoring my Dad's old Ferguson some day, when he's done with it. But I'll never use it for anything. As a work machine, it's worthless. To me. There are lots of folks around here still using them, because they don't know better, or because nostalgia is more important to them than safety or getting the work done. That's fine, as long as they don't try to tell someone else that a Ferguson is the best machine within earshot of me. If they claim to base that opinion on anything other than pure personal preference, I'm going to contest it, because they're simply mistaken. I want an old John Deere to restore, too, but it has nothing to do with doing real work with it - their time for that has come and gone.
The trouble with opinions is that they're too easy to come by, and we always think we're right - I mean, wouldn't it be stupid to have an opinion if you didn't think it was right? Kinda like not finding something in the last place you looked because you kept looking after you found it... An example I've used a number of times is 4-in-1 buckets. Now I know they're not a worthwhile investment for everyone, but every time I've ever been asked why I wanted a 4-in-1 bucket on my Kubota, I always answered with a question: "You haven't spent much time using a 4-in-1 bucket, have you?" And the answer has always been "No." (Well, to be fair, it turned out to be no in one case where a guy thought 2 hours with a rental machine was a lot...) Yet, still, we always think our opinions are correct, no matter how little experience they're based on, otherwise we'd have a different one. That's why I always ask anybody with an opinion differing from mine how much varied experience they've got. If it's more than mine, I'm listening, if not, well, it depends on how much time I've got and how patient I feel.
Put another way: Taking the long, wrong, way to work for 10 years after a new road has been constructed because you hate change may give you a lot of experience, but it doesn't make you a good person to ask for the shortest route, no matter how strongly you feel about it.)
My problem (well, ok, one of them) is that I become absolutely obsessive about stuff like this. When I decided to get rid of the Kubota, I called everybody I could find who made anything in the 60-hp class of TLB and my first question was whether they made anything in that class that was hydrostatic. Most of them do. My next question involved crab steering and that ended the conversation. Thus came my little detour with articulation. Then back to JCB, because they had crab steering, so I test drove one, but decided I wasn't about to go back to a non-hydrostatic machine. And that's how (sort of, and leaving out a lot of details) I ended up with the EarthForce...
MarkC
The trouble with opinions is that they're too easy to come by, and we always think we're right - I mean, wouldn't it be stupid to have an opinion if you didn't think it was right? Kinda like not finding something in the last place you looked because you kept looking after you found it... An example I've used a number of times is 4-in-1 buckets. Now I know they're not a worthwhile investment for everyone, but every time I've ever been asked why I wanted a 4-in-1 bucket on my Kubota, I always answered with a question: "You haven't spent much time using a 4-in-1 bucket, have you?" And the answer has always been "No." (Well, to be fair, it turned out to be no in one case where a guy thought 2 hours with a rental machine was a lot...) Yet, still, we always think our opinions are correct, no matter how little experience they're based on, otherwise we'd have a different one. That's why I always ask anybody with an opinion differing from mine how much varied experience they've got. If it's more than mine, I'm listening, if not, well, it depends on how much time I've got and how patient I feel.
Put another way: Taking the long, wrong, way to work for 10 years after a new road has been constructed because you hate change may give you a lot of experience, but it doesn't make you a good person to ask for the shortest route, no matter how strongly you feel about it.)
My problem (well, ok, one of them) is that I become absolutely obsessive about stuff like this. When I decided to get rid of the Kubota, I called everybody I could find who made anything in the 60-hp class of TLB and my first question was whether they made anything in that class that was hydrostatic. Most of them do. My next question involved crab steering and that ended the conversation. Thus came my little detour with articulation. Then back to JCB, because they had crab steering, so I test drove one, but decided I wasn't about to go back to a non-hydrostatic machine. And that's how (sort of, and leaving out a lot of details) I ended up with the EarthForce...
MarkC
MChalkley
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Terry - You're welcome! And thank you for not yelling at me, even when I earn it... /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
MarkC
MarkC
cowboydoc
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Rat,
I'll admit that Terry's comments about hydro's were a little harsh but still his opinion, but anyway. With regard to the older 2wd tractors and you and Mark saying that they cannot compete with todays compact tractors I'd like some clarification on that. It seems you are as quilty as Raptor of going off about and degrading some pretty fine tractors that put food on your table day after day. The old 60's and 70's tractors are the backbone of most farms. That Massey I had you could hook it up to about anything and go work all day long. I never was anywhere where I got it stuck and I have some pretty rough ground. When I poured my floor for my barn the concrete truck got stuck. The other truck that was here couldn't get him out. I hooked up to the Massey and pulled him right out, my JD just sat there and spun all four wheels. This 4020 I traded for is considered the best tractor ever made by most people by JD. I'm not sure what couldn't be done with either one of these tractors that couldn't be done with a compact where SPACE is not an issue. What is a "skip loader"? Anyway if you're talking about general chores around the house and such yes a compact is great, that's why I bought one. But if you're talking about going out and going to do heavy work then forget it. You even said yourself there weren't any farmers in your area doing serious farming with compact tractors.
I'll admit that Terry's comments about hydro's were a little harsh but still his opinion, but anyway. With regard to the older 2wd tractors and you and Mark saying that they cannot compete with todays compact tractors I'd like some clarification on that. It seems you are as quilty as Raptor of going off about and degrading some pretty fine tractors that put food on your table day after day. The old 60's and 70's tractors are the backbone of most farms. That Massey I had you could hook it up to about anything and go work all day long. I never was anywhere where I got it stuck and I have some pretty rough ground. When I poured my floor for my barn the concrete truck got stuck. The other truck that was here couldn't get him out. I hooked up to the Massey and pulled him right out, my JD just sat there and spun all four wheels. This 4020 I traded for is considered the best tractor ever made by most people by JD. I'm not sure what couldn't be done with either one of these tractors that couldn't be done with a compact where SPACE is not an issue. What is a "skip loader"? Anyway if you're talking about general chores around the house and such yes a compact is great, that's why I bought one. But if you're talking about going out and going to do heavy work then forget it. You even said yourself there weren't any farmers in your area doing serious farming with compact tractors.
gordon
Veteran Member
On my 4310 the cruise doesn't work in revese/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
Yes my cruise stays on unless I hit both brake pedals. Must have something that might need adjusting on your pedals.
Gordon
Yes my cruise stays on unless I hit both brake pedals. Must have something that might need adjusting on your pedals.
Gordon
JATO_RaT
Veteran Member
Terry, the problem is not with passion, since this whole thing started about someone trying to decide on a tractor and its drive, I think that offering this fellow a opportunity to understand and be informed about the subject is great. I just felt your opinion did neither. Nothing wrong with having your opinion and as you stated, it was just your opinion and that is fine. We should also be able to point out where the obvious flaws in your or anyones opinion are with again our opinion. My opinion has been formed by having both tractors and also having hundreds of more hours on "gear" drives as well as torque converter "gear drives" like the CAT 960's then HST's. As far as durability, only time will tell if the HST will be anywhere near as tough as most manufactuers gear drives. Your response to mine was excellent and I do agree with it. You certainly do not have anything to apologize for as far as being "old school", the only pun intended there was that I know so many folks that are and the computer has so slowly become something they will use. The fact that you sought help with your endeavor is adimirabe. The 2 cents remark I made referred only to your comment about the hydrostatic drive and not your comments in general. You too have great and safe tractoring, Rat...
JATO_RaT
Veteran Member
Richard from time to time I rent a tractor. Every now and then all they have are the industrial 2WD drives available with loader and box scraper. The loader portion works great on these bigger machines, its the traction or lack of it when the bucket is full. You have a tough time going uphill backwards everytime. Using a box scraper on a 2WD tractor is almost useless for really getting into the material with rippers. I have no dislike of these tractors, its what I learned on and I still have one. I know its my opinion, but feel its got a little merit since I do have experience with both as well as own both. I don't think I was degrading them or the owners of them as I would be doing it to myself as well. The fact is these compacts with 4WD have so much more traction then the old 2WD tractors I used which is really important with a loader. Todays construction tractors are pretty much all 4WD, I think you can certainly understand that. The old tractors you mention as being the backbone of the farms, I always thought of them as the backbone of yesterdays construction industry for quickly moving material around. Here in CA., its always interesting to see what old tractor the farmers have still running around in the yard. It is pretty much older stuff. The backbone I would say in their work are the big 6 and 8 tire drives made by CASE, JD and New Holland as well as a few other brands. One thing that is being seen more and more are the CAT rubber track drives. I'm sure these guys probably get some ridiculing, but they are starting to pop up everywhere, even JD has one now. Rat...
MChalkley
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Richard - When I got my first and second Kubotas (the smallest L in GST followed by the 34-hp L GST), I had an MF - I can't remember the model at the moment, but it was 2wd, a little under 50 hp. It was a good bushhogging tractor, for the most part. Beyond that, I found it worthless, compared to either Kubota. The fact that I'm basing that statement on a comparison is the critical piece of information, because the MF was a far better tractor than my Dad's Ferguson, in my opinion. At least it was a diesel. But, as far as productivity and ease of use were concerned, no contest. I didn't have the smallest L long at all, but the L3410GST would work the much larger MF into the ground. The L4310HST was a huge improvement in those areas over the L3410GST, so the MF and the 4310 aren't even in the same universe, by comparison. Would I take the MF if it were the only thing available? Sure. Did I want it anymore after using the Kubotas? Nope.
Some reasons to back up all that propaganda. Reason number 1: [/i]FOUR WHEEL DRIVE[/i] (that's meant to be read as though it were said accompanied by jumping up and down, waving your arms about manaically, while shouting it at the top of your lungs /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif). Reason number 2: GST. The reason the L4310HST was so much better than the L3710GST: HST. In my opinion, based on lots of hours on all of 'em, is that it's just that important. (I actually had fewer hours on the HST than on the GST's.) It makes that much difference. Or to revert back to my 4-in-1 bucket approach: Don't like HST? Haven't spent much time using one, have you? My point here is that, if not, you aren't qualified to have an opinion based on anything practical that you can share with others. (Again, I admit this is over-simplifying a tad. I'm not saying that HST is for everyone but the remaining few don't usually come here for advice - they already know. And there are also other considerations, too. For example, some folks can't afford a new enough tractor to get HST.)
Your comment that the tractors Rat degraded were/are "some pretty fine tractors that put food on your table day after day" is well taken. But the context we were discussing was one of comparisons. There have been some very fine horse-drawn implements that put food on the table day after day, too, but you don't see people lining up to do it that way anymore. Those are fine tractors. There were some fine horses. Today's tractors are finer. By far. At least, that's been my experience.
MarkC
Some reasons to back up all that propaganda. Reason number 1: [/i]FOUR WHEEL DRIVE[/i] (that's meant to be read as though it were said accompanied by jumping up and down, waving your arms about manaically, while shouting it at the top of your lungs /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif). Reason number 2: GST. The reason the L4310HST was so much better than the L3710GST: HST. In my opinion, based on lots of hours on all of 'em, is that it's just that important. (I actually had fewer hours on the HST than on the GST's.) It makes that much difference. Or to revert back to my 4-in-1 bucket approach: Don't like HST? Haven't spent much time using one, have you? My point here is that, if not, you aren't qualified to have an opinion based on anything practical that you can share with others. (Again, I admit this is over-simplifying a tad. I'm not saying that HST is for everyone but the remaining few don't usually come here for advice - they already know. And there are also other considerations, too. For example, some folks can't afford a new enough tractor to get HST.)
Your comment that the tractors Rat degraded were/are "some pretty fine tractors that put food on your table day after day" is well taken. But the context we were discussing was one of comparisons. There have been some very fine horse-drawn implements that put food on the table day after day, too, but you don't see people lining up to do it that way anymore. Those are fine tractors. There were some fine horses. Today's tractors are finer. By far. At least, that's been my experience.
MarkC