Hypothetical Doomsday Scenario

[MasseyWV]

If you disagree with any of my posts, take a look at the original posters hypothetical and then in that light, not some personally reworked variation, make your case. I'm willing to be persuaded by a logical argument based on realistic and believable premises (unlike the hypothetical itself.) Simply asserting the the military will be well behaved, great artists will arise out of the minor difficulties, and the indomitable spirit of the American people (hum "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" quietly and respectfully in the background during this part) will triumph over all adversity and return to a simpler time when we could all risk polio, unsafe patent medications, embalmed beef, dawn to dusk labor etc. you know, the good old days!

Ok, lets use some real scenarios of human survival without the aid of modern technology during extreme conditions, ones that actually happened. One is before modern technology came to pass and one is after modern technology came to pass. Granted, the survivors ultimately had to resort to eating each other to survive, but they survived.

Donner Party - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

1972 Andes flight disaster - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[patrick_g]

Ok, lets use some real scenarios of human survival without the aid of modern technology during extreme conditions, ones that actually happened. One is before modern technology came to pass and one is after modern technology came to pass. Granted, the survivors ultimately had to resort to eating each other to survive, but they survived.

Donner Party - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

1972 Andes flight disaster - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Are you suggesting that the key to survival after some idiot pushes the button is cannibalism? You think this is sustainable and for how long? The sports team and the Donner party were a small blip of short duration, hardly scalable to the proportions needed. Nevertheless, it might serve as a stopgap measure while getting used to the idea of death by starvation..

Pat

 

[Blitzn]

Granted, the survivors ultimately had to resort to eating each other to survive, but they survived.
Donner Party - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ouch! Donner, party of eight.....wait, seven.....no, six.....:laughing:
Anybody got some finger-food? At their cocktail party, I hear they served lady fingers…
You wanna give me a hand for that or not?
I heard they played hockey. There was a face off, and then ..............there was some guy outside the arena, scalping tickets.

Those Donner folks may have been only rough pioneers, but you must admit they had great taste. :licking:

Sorry, best I can do on short notice. Still I do the best I can to cook something up.:duh:

 

[MasseyWV]

Are you suggesting that the key to survival after some idiot pushes the button is cannibalism? You think this is sustainable and for how long. The sports team and the Donner party were a small blip of short duration, hardly scalable to the proportions needed. Nevertheless, it might serve as a stopgap measure.

No, I wasn't suggesting that cannibalism was the answer, but it was the most extreme example I could think of. Water is nearly everywhere and there are many things which are edible, including us. Most people couldn't stomach the thought of eating bugs, spiders, snakes, worms, grass, or even each other, but if they were starving and had no other choice they might just change their minds. Besides, we're talking about survival here.

As for sustainability, one could survive a lifetime if needed. And if you doubt what I'm saying, just look up how some people survive in Africa or the Amazon rainforests.

 

[patrick_g]

Interested in Soylent Green? It's improved from Soylent Yellow! We get it Pat, anyone who considers functioning without the benefits of the modern age is a backwater buffoon and should be exterminated by your allegations they are comparable to an IdaAmin or ******.

But you also forget the Washington's who replaced George the III, the lone chinaman in Tiannemen Square, the failure of von Stauffenburg, and more. Human success and goodness trumps evil - but it can take time.
However I can point to many abuses and dysfunctionalities championed by governments - including New Orleans, Detroit, War between the States, Wilson's 14 points of light that led to WW2, the Holocause, the Gulags, the Great Society, Roosevelt's New Deal, etc.

Ok - we know you can't survive without the Federal Govt.

You'll have to break it down for me, I don't understand your post.

I thought the two choices were Soylent Red (vegetable matter) and Soylent Green (processed cadavers) Your examples are well chosen to represent the best of the human spirit and I certainly admire those folks. Excellent examples of the stuff that heroes are made of. I just don't see how standing in front of a tank or refusing to be king and settling for president will feed the masses after some megalomaniac pushes the button.

Oh, and I don't get the Fed Gov comment either. I'm a big fan of the smaller the Gov the better. Like Albert Einstein said, "Everything should be made as simple as possible but no simpler." He was not being political but the quote expresses my views on Government. For me the least Government that works is the right size.

Pat

 

[patrick_g]

As for sustainability, one could survive a lifetime if needed. And if you doubt what I'm saying, just look up how some people survive in Africa or the Amazon rainforests.

How many people in the US can do or learn to do before starving what the folks you mention can do and we don't have the climate or resources of the Amazon. I'm not too worried about the folks in the Amazon, I don't have a dog in that fight.

What about the temperate zone populations which are concentrated in large cities and urban areas? Cannibalism is not really sustainable for them. You might get two maybe three meals out of an adult or larger child before the rest spoils.

I fully agree that some of the third world will hardly notice the button was pushed and a lot of the rest of it would only be inconvenienced, not put into a condition of extremis. That is not of concern to me and likely not a big issue with the OP as he purposely listed technologies to be lost at the push of a button and none were primitive technologies like say making fire from friction. I think advanced technological societies were his area of interest but if that is not so he can step up and correct my misunderstanding as I am not in his confidence.

Pat

 

[Blitzn]

You'll have to break it down for me, I don't understand your post.

I thought the two choices were Soylent Red (vegetable matter) and Soylent Green (processed cadavers) Your examples are well chosen to represent the best of the human spirit and I certainly admire those folks. Excellent examples of the stuff that heroes are made of. I just don't see how standing in front of a tank or refusing to be king and settling for president will feed the masses after some megalomaniac pushes the button.

Oh, and I don't get the Fed Gov comment either. I'm a big fan of the smaller the Gov the better. Like Albert Einstein said, "Everything should be made as simple as possible but no simpler." He was not being political but the quote expresses my views on Government. For me the least Government that works is the right size.

Pat

My point was soley about the human spirit. I have seen great tragedy, but also great success - and it gives me some solace (whenever I dread where our govt is headed).
Your comments were about how would the government function in feeding the masses. In one of my previous posts I commented - that is precisely the issue - those dependents will be the threat. 100 years ago, before tech, you could be born, live, marry, and die and except for filing a deed - never deal with the govt. How small a govt is too small? By some that is the definition of Anarchy - but per Merriam, it is also the definition of Utopia.

Vi veri universum vivus vici

 

[MasseyWV]

How many people in the US can do or learn to do before starving what the folks you mention can do and we don't have the climate or resources of the Amazon. I'm not too worried about the folks in the Amazon, I don't have a dog in that fight.

What about the temperate zone populations which are concentrated in large cities and urban areas? Cannibalism is not really sustainable for them. You might get two maybe three meals out of an adult or larger child before the rest spoils.

I fully agree that some of the third world will hardly notice the button was pushed and a lot of the rest of it would only be inconvenienced, not put into a condition of extremis. That is not of concern to me and likely not a big issue with the OP as he purposely listed technologies to be lost at the push of a button and none were primitive technologies like say making fire from friction. I think advanced technological societies were his area of interest but if that is not so he can step up and correct my misunderstanding as I am not in his confidence.

You do realize that I am the OP don't you?

You seem to have been making baseless assumptions. Not once did I ever claim that everyone in technologically advanced regions would survive such an event or that people would only survive by way of cannibalism. Cities would likely be toast and rural areas wouldn't fair much better. However, many more people would be capable of surviving than you might think. At first, survival would be difficult, where some people may have to take extreme measures to survive, but in the long run it's entirely possible that society would re-emerge better and stronger than it is today. It might take hundreds or even thousands of years, but it could happen.

Obviously it would be a very different world than the one we are used to living in, but that's a given. The whole point, which you have been helping to make, is that we as a species are over dependent on technology.

 

[MasseyWV]

Ouch! Donner, party of eight.....wait, seven.....no, six.....:laughing:
Anybody got some finger-food? At their cocktail party, I hear they served lady fingers…
You wanna give me a hand for that or not?
I heard they played hockey. There was a face off, and then ..............there was some guy outside the arena, scalping tickets.

Those Donner folks may have been only rough pioneers, but you must admit they had great taste. :licking:

Sorry, best I can do on short notice. Still I do the best I can to cook something up.:duh:

OMG, that's hilarious! :laughing:

 

[creekbend]

I think creekbend is probably figuring at this point for our country to do away with all tech...we would revert back to the stone age....I mean what tech. do you want to eliminate...cell phones, computers, electricity...?? think about each one of these and how they are used to make our lives more livable...Are there abuses..? Yes...all the texting , video games, cell phone calls, gimmics etc...Would we have been better off staying with the electric typewriters, calculators and go no further....maybe so...but it looks like it is too late now...we are too dependent on the tech for our way of life....think of all the records on computers..etc. I for one agree with Creekbend....I don't want to give up modern conveniences anytime soon and we can't pick and choose which parts of the internet are used or how cell phones are used or the kinds of Movies or videos on tv or games...It is what it is and humanity has brought it where it is...good or bad...I use the good and ignore the bad as best I can...

I think that is what creekbend was getting at...maybe I'm wrong though...

Dear Sir: Your are fairly accurate in your assumption. BTW, I wasn't offended by the OP's remarks. I don't have "Onion Skin". The somewhat analogy that I made is regards to a "Checker" player and a "Chess" player refers that when playing CHECKERS, sometimes one opponent changes the game rules midstream when it best suits their position. This can't be done when playing CHESS. In the OP's fourth post he clearly stated, "Would I push the button? Maybe". It is apparent that the OP has changed his direction several times in this thread. I regard this member as a decent individual, but as the old saying goes, "You can't have your cake and eat it too". He derives many things from today's Modern Technology, but on the other hand, he regards condemning tens of millions of people to certain doom, starvation and death by "Pushing the Button" as acceptable. Here's a short narrative of my learning experience. My Father was in the U.S. Army during WWII. He fought campaigns to liberate Europe including Germany and served in Germany for several years during the post War years. He met my Mother in Frankfurt, and married her. They were married three times to make it legal- Germany, Austria and New York City. I was born in Salzburg, Austria. During my entire lifetime, I never saw my Mother eat tomatoes, although she prepared them for us. I once asked my Father for the reason. My Father informed me that for two summers during the ravages of WAR, the main food that my Mother lived on was TOMATOES and GRASS. My Mother was an orphan in Austria and Germany, and she never talked to us Children about her experiences. She only talked at times to my Father-her Husband. I could never, ever agree with anybody that would even mention the possibility of even thinking about PUSHING the button. No matter how remote the possibility. This position is not to be defended in any way. Not only my thoughts, but a civilized VIEWPOINT. Thanks for listening.

 

[Blitzn]

Creekbend,
Your comment regarding checkers and chess is also a derogatory swipe at one with inferior intellect.
IMO, the OP has not changed his position, merely answered his own question - that he might.
Your straw dog about your mother is a shame, but also proves the OP point - that mankind survives. Why you believe that the experience of your father or your mother allows your opinion to carry more weight than another's though I do not know. You state flatly that the OPs position is indefensable - yet I would argue your certainty.
Why is it that the Allies were permitted to carpet bomb civilian population centers in Germany, and wage absolute and total war on Germany/Japan - thereby sending them back to the "stone age". Because such action was deemed necesary for humanity. But why in Vietnam, Korea, Iraq have we not obliterated cities as in Dresden? Why was my family in Germany permitted to have our home destroyed, but my family in the US not? Such experience certainly makes me see multiple points of view - but not to state absolutes that because of my experience my position is superior.
Are Germans less of a people then the Iraqis? The Vietnamese?
Such discussion is irrelevant to this commentary.
You answered the point - you would not push the button.

I counter with a question to all - WHY do you believe that such an event would force mankind into devouring itself? New Orleans? Upstream areas flooded and there were no riots and looting. Tornadoes destory Joplin - and there is no rioting, no looting? In 2003, the NE United States and Canada suffered a massive blackout for days - no electricity, no cell phones, no fuel pumps.....and yet - the National Guard wasn't called out - the military wasn't destroyed - and only minor events occurred (of course in cities).

So why are you so quick to state that mankind would turn on itself like wolves? Perhaps we can teach the city folks how to clean a chicken, or grow some food, or how to shoot (at game - vs each other)?

You are so quick to see the negative and feel govt is all that protects you from being devoured. Someone once said something about people see others through their own perceptions and how they beleive they would react. Perhaps you should examine your perceptions.

“There are two types of people who will tell you that you cannot make a difference in this world: Those who are afraid to try themselves, and those who are afraid that you will succeed.”
Ray Goforth

 

[MasseyWV]

In the OP's fourth post he clearly stated, "Would I push the button? Maybe". It is apparent that the OP has changed his direction several times in this thread. I regard this member as a decent individual, but as the old saying goes, "You can't have your cake and eat it too". He derives many things from today's Modern Technology, but on the other hand, he regards condemning tens of millions of people to certain doom, starvation and death by "Pushing the Button" as acceptable.

Have you bothered to READ and COMPREHEND my replies to this thread? I have never changed my position, which has always been that people are far too dependent on technology. In fact, I've clearly stated that several times.

I do NOT, nor have I EVER condoned the deaths of anyone. It's a "Hypothetical Doomsday Scenario" which means that it is NOT real. The intent is to provoke thought about the matter, thought which MAY lead to a better understanding about the grim future our society MAY face if something doesn't change.

With regard to my "maybe" statement, I was playing the Devils advocate while trying to show that I had mixed feelings about it. Did you not see my earlier response to a post by RoyJackson about his pacemaker? Here it is, just in case you missed it.

Things like this, are exactly why I said maybe in my earlier post about pushing the button. On one hand I believe that we would all be better off without being so dependent on technology, but on the other hand I believe that some technology can be a good thing, very much like the pacemaker that your life depends on.

After living through one of the worst power outages in modern history, then seeing just how nasty and greedy people were, I knew darned well that there was a serious and potentially dangerous problem lurking all around us, and making matters worse is that the problem was us. And that is NOT hypothetical, it is REAL.

If people choose to live in blind ignorance that is their own business, but I like to look at the possibilities to help me better prepare to the unknown. It's precisely this kind of blind ignorance that has created the problem in the first place, and if anyone believes that a massive prolonged power outage cannot occur, they are a fool who deserves everything they get as a result of not being prepared for it.

I'm sorry for being brutally blunt, but I will not be made out to look like something I'm not, simply because I proposed a hypothetical doomsday scenario.

 

[ljohnson778]

Have you bothered to READ and COMPREHEND my replies to this thread? I have never changed my position, which has always been that people are far too dependent on technology. In fact, I've clearly stated that several time.

Who are you to judge what people are far too dependent on?

What makes your opinion that technology is bad any more relevant than another's opinion that technology is great?

If you choose to denounce technology, then do so personally. This is your choice, do not project your opinion on me or others. We are fully capable of deciding for ourselves what we will, or will not, engage in.

You mentioned the thread where you reached out to TBN when you were trying to save your cat... An honorable act, no doubt, but one which relied upon multiple technologies to accomplish.

Perhaps a better question for you to ask would be: If there was a disaster that rendered technology as we know it inoperable, how would you cope? Here's how I might cope... Etc.

 

[MasseyWV]

Who are you to judge what people are far too dependent on?

What makes your opinion that technology is bad any more relevant than another's opinion that technology is great?

If you choose to denounce technology, then do so personally. This is your choice, do not project your opinion on me or others. We are fully capable of deciding for ourselves what we will, or will not, engage in.

You mentioned the thread where you reached out to TBN when you were trying to save your cat... An honorable act, no doubt, but one which relied upon multiple technologies to accomplish.

Perhaps a better question for you to ask would be: If there was a disaster that rendered technology as we know it inoperable, how would you cope? Here's how I might cope... Etc.

It was my OPINION, take it or leave it. And as I recall, I was responding directly to someone else. That said, this is so typical of the crap which is so common here and is often why debates rage on forever over the most seemingly innocent of topics, regardless of their content or intent. I could say the sky is blue and someone would take exception to my remark.

 

[ljohnson778]

It was my OPINION, take it or leave it. And as I recall, I was responding directly to someone else. That said, this is so typical of the crap which is so common here and is often why debates rage on forever over the most seemingly innocent of topics, regardless of their content or intent. I could say the sky is blue and someone would take exception to my remark.

Thank you, I think I'll leave it... And, as you seem to be in the minority on most of your opinions, and they generally tend to be on the extreme side, I think I'll bow out of this thread before it gets too ugly.

I think I'll go talk about tractors...

 

[BobRip]

Just some points that have not been raised I think:

1. Even if we were all trained and had full possession of 19th century technology it would not provide enough resources to support 300 million people in the USA. The sanitation practices of that time would kill millions if extended to our present population. Modern technology enables high population.

2. We do not have the 19th century technology with training. We would be living below cave man level since he was practiced in dealing with that environment and none of us are.

3. I believe that at least 95% and maybe 99% of the population would die. Humanity would definitely survive, just not very many. I am talking USA people not primitive areas.

4. Being 63 and having a pacemaker with many medications, I would die soon.

 

[MasseyWV]

I think I'll bow out of this thread before it gets too ugly. I think I'll go talk about tractors...

Discussing this further is clearly pointless. With regard to talking about tractors, working on my tractor is much more interesting to me, so that's precisely what I intend to do, at least for now anyway.

 

[EE_Bota]

There is a satellite network which is capable of permanently shutting down all electrical machinery and appliances of any kind. The satellite network is controlled by a computer, which is controlled by a small hand-held remote device.

Enter a code then push a button and that's it. No electrical power grid, no TV, no internet, no cell phones, no cars, no nothing. We would effectively and permanently be thrown back into the stone age within seconds.

Would you push the button?

Only if it was labeled "Do Not Push!" If so, I figure they had it coming.

Of course I would never push the button. I saw what the recent storms did to you guys.

 

[patrick_g]

You do realize that I am the OP don't you?

You seem to have been making baseless assumptions. Not once did I ever claim that everyone in technologically advanced regions would survive such an event or that people would only survive by way of cannibalism. Cities would likely be toast and rural areas wouldn't fair much better. However, many more people would be capable of surviving than you might think. At first, survival would be difficult, where some people may have to take extreme measures to survive, but in the long run it's entirely possible that society would re-emerge better and stronger than it is today. It might take hundreds or even thousands of years, but it could happen.

Obviously it would be a very different world than the one we are used to living in, but that's a given. The whole point, which you have been helping to make, is that we as a species are over dependent on technology.

Of course I know you are the OP. I'll be more direct: I think you have unstated assumptions, I think you are changing the game mid stream. I was directing your attention to your original post which I thought pretty clearly stated the parameters of the discussion. If you choose to amend your initial conditions that is fine but it would be a courtesy to make it clear so we are all considering and debating from the same guidelines.

OK, correct me if I'm wrong. You are stating that pushing the button and killing millions is desirable because hundreds or thousands of years from now it is possible that we will have regenerated into a better if not Utopian civilization? Your concern then is not for millions of currently living individuals but for humanity. Where have I read this before? Oh yeah, in one of Asimov's robot serials where the "main character robot" violates one of the 3 fundamental laws of robotics... because he has postulated a zeroth law where through action a robot is not permitted to harm humanity nor through inaction allow humanity to be harmed. This rationally justified the murder he committed in violation of one of the first three laws.

How very altruistic and noble of you to suggest killing millions so that later generations may live lives more in keeping with your wishes. Good luck in getting general agreement to "drink the Koolaid" because it is for the betterment of others in a few hundred or thousand years. Lead by example but include me out.

I think I have may ranch work to do. I'l just say bye bye for now, put on my old western hat with the big Indian style feather and go check to see if there are additional places need fixin' besides where I fixed before 0700 this AM where the fence was broken by the utility company's contractor right of way crew. I hate it when the police come to me at 2130 to tell me they been chasing my stock off the highway.

I bet most if not all of those shot at the movies in Colorado were "super consumers" and so to make the world a better place through protecting the environment the nice man with a gun removed some of the spoilers of our pristine world. And the difference between this and you yearning to push the button is what?

Pat

 

[schoolsout]

I think a lot of people that are alive today should not be alive...survival of the fittest has turned into being a parasite on society nowadays. This is an unsustainable path. I think the market will push "the button" long before any human would ever have the chance to do that. Big changes in lifestyles are coming and it isn't going to be for the better. We have created a world where reality takes a back seat to some fantasy dreamed up by our politicians and those that continue to elect them for "free" stuff and so that the gov't will always take care of them.

My $0.02