I almost broke the law...alot

[RayH]

Holy Crap.. some people make me soo tired. AS stated in the OTHER thread...Fed Law says you DON"T NEED A CDL if the total tow capacity is below 26,001 lbs... HOWEVER this is a MINIMUM and each state can deviate to the more stringent side... ie CA... I (meaning me as the Rep. for my Comapny) just went through a Federal DOT compliance review... it's very cut and dried...

It sounds like you are frustrated with me. Im not sure I understand why, I think we agree on this issue. Ive always stated that its the 26001 that is CDL territory, not the 10000 trailer. Ive also admitted that, while all states follow federal guidelines, at least one (CA) that I know of is more strict. Ive researched several states over the past couple years, mostly states in my area (mideast) and found that they all pretty much follow the federal standard. Do you know of others that may differ from federal?

 

[rback33]

no. no. not frustrated with you Ray.. but someone else yes...

 

[jwnge]

Regardless of the law, that is one fine trailer...John

 

[kevinj]

Thank you Rayh,

I hate to admit as well I spent 8 years as a Colorado Municipal Judge hearing traffic, city ordinance violations, misdemeanors, lived in Colorado almost 30 years, and never new or studied CRS about trailers and weights. I have sent off many, many transcripts to DMV for all kinds of different violations, but weight and most CDL violations are be written into county court as a state violation. But hey, I make mistakes like anyone, just kind of embarrassed I went out and purchased the biggest trailer I could find, (the 20 footer, 20,000 GVWR) and never thought about checking into the weights or if it was legal to pull this with my pickup. I see these types up and down the freeway, and every rancher out here seems to have a big one on their place. My other option was the farm plate on the pickup, but then I would be limited to 150 miles from the ranch here. I even have a class B CDL now, for any single vehicle over 26,000, P endorsed for School Bus, airbrakes, and tanker. Our fire dept has a 3300 gal Freightliner over 26,000, so I went ahead an took the tanker test just in the event later down the road, they change that law. Fire apparatus is currently exempt, but I see California has requirements.
Again, I think some are getting confused and think that the 10,000 lb is the limit, but its really when towing over 10,000 in combination, it falls under the combination of the two vehicle catagory. Michigan explains this better than most states.....thanks for posting.
Another thing, a state dosen't adopt federal law......federal law is enforced across the US period. A state can amend their laws stricter like California did, but federal law still exist in all states. Our city ordinances must follow state CRS or can be amended stricter, but no less than state law.

BTW, I was born in Detroit, grew up just north of Pontiac in a town called Clarkston

Steve

I hope you can better explain what I wish to convey here. I carry a Michigan CDL AT and can tote around 161,000# on multiple trailers but there is an exclusion in the CDL law that exempts non commercial (personal) and farmers and RV's. So the way I read it; If you are hauling for private use only you can skirt the law. But if you drive for someone in commercial cartage (backhoe behind dump truck) then this 10,000 combined is an issue. If someone hauls a personal or farm tractor over 10,000 combined they are exempt. So now we have ametuers hauling heavy loads without proper training and licsensing. Some professional drivers are bad, but most of the real trailer hazzards on the road are farmers and joe blow with his grossly overloaded pickup and junk trailer followed by boat trailers and large RV's.

 

[LMTC]

Despite the fact that Ohio uses the Federal guideline, I have been told by a locally-based State Patrol enforcement officer that he WILL ticket anyone using a trailer over 10k GVW without a CDL. I have reviewed the wording with him myself, explaining he is just skipping over the part about the combined rating having to be 26,001 or more. It's as if he just refuses to acknowledge that part of the regulation. I have no idea how it would play out in court, but I do know your rig would be parked until someone with a CDL came to move it.

I tend to think the myth about 10k has circulated for so long it has become the actual regulation in many people's minds.

 

[BTI]

I never haul more than the trailer will hold......



BTI

 

[rback33]

Despite the fact that Ohio uses the Federal guideline, I have been told by a locally-based State Patrol enforcement officer that he WILL ticket anyone using a trailer over 10k GVW without a CDL. I have reviewed the wording with him myself, explaining he is just skipping over the part about the combined rating having to be 26,001 or more. It's as if he just refuses to acknowledge that part of the regulation. I have no idea how it would play out in court, but I do know your rig would be parked until someone with a CDL came to move it.

I tend to think the myth about 10k has circulated for so long it has become the actual regulation in many people's minds.

You may very well be right... people of authority over-stepiing their bounds scares the bejeezus outta me... In the end it matters very little to me... I have my own Fed book as I am in charge of all this for my company as the Commercial vehicle law applies when we put the trailer on behind the company pick-ups. I am a permanently retired (at 29, college educated)driver with a CLass A CDL with Hazmat, tanker, Doubles/triples. If it moves, I can drive it (not a bus or cylce LEGALLY, but I can). AS others have said, what scares me is when Joe blow has his POS truck and trailer loaded to the hilt with two straps securing it all. That's where enforcement needs to be. I saw two of those last week alone... truck bumper was almost to the ground...

 

[AlanB]

AS others have said, what scares me is when Joe blow has his POS truck and trailer loaded to the hilt with two straps securing it all. That's where enforcement needs to be. I saw two of those last week alone... truck bumper was almost to the ground...

I am supposed to use STRAPS?

Sorry, could not resist.

I work in Hazmat and concur with what I believe LMTC said, Sometimes things circulate so long that folks start to believe them as truth. And honestly, I am sitting here staring at the front Page of the TN CDL book and see how it can be interperted both ways.

But at the end of the day, when the guy with the blue light the badge and a gun, tells you to park it over there and have someone with a CDL come get it, it is going to be very inconvienient at best. Right or wrong will not matter, he wins at the moment.

 

[Steve_a_reno]

Kevin,

Since you have my quote in your post I'll assume your addressing me. We are all entitled to our opinions and I sure respect yours, and I'll sure give you mine. You know the state and federal government has put weight limitations on everyone, even you. But remember, everyone was an "amateur" at one time or another, even you. As far as the weight, no I won't be carrying 161,000 on my trailer, but I am allowed to tow 14000 GVW safely. I personally think its everyones responsibility, when you climb behind the wheel of any vehicle, to make sure your not overloaded, safety chains in place, have the proper license for what you can drive, and like you say, "Training" and the list goes on. Safety is for all vehicles on the road, whether its you in your big truck, me in my pickup, I'm driving a bus load of kids, or our 16 year old new drivers as well as old veteran drivers out there.
The issue on the "dump truck backhoe combo" only becomes and issue if you are combining over 26001 (private). Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but my trailer has a GVWR of 14,000#, minus the actual weight of 5600, leaves 8400 to put in the back. My tractor, with loader and backhoe attached weighs 5965, just under 3 ton.
Kevin, do you think I shouldn't be allowed to tow this? I really think I can and do it in a safe manor. Perhaps your thinking of these huge commercial backhoes, dump trucks over 26,000 and trailers the can carry a house on them. Well if thats the case, yup, you do need a CDL, and proper training, otherwise your probably going to get a summons. On a another note, I won't be allowing my 17 year old Daughter to go get a load of gravel anytime soon.
I share in some of your thoughts. Right now, its perfectly legal in our state to allow an 18 year old fireman to climb into our 3300 gal Freightliner water tender and drive it under emergency conditions (lights/siren) without a CDL.
Yes, we do train them first, but it isn't required....go figure! I personally think there should be more regulations on the issue...just my opinion. There is only a couple of us that drive it though.

Steve

 

[kevinj]

Kevin,

Since you have my quote in your post I'll assume your addressing me. We are all entitled to our opinions and I sure respect yours, and I'll sure give you mine. You know the state and federal government has put weight limitations on everyone, even you. But remember, everyone was an "amateur" at one time or another, even you. As far as the weight, no I won't be carrying 161,000 on my trailer, but I am allowed to tow 14000 GVW safely. I personally think its everyones responsibility, when you climb behind the wheel of any vehicle, to make sure your not overloaded, safety chains in place, have the proper license for what you can drive, and like you say, "Training" and the list goes on. Safety is for all vehicles on the road, whether its you in your big truck, me in my pickup, I'm driving a bus load of kids, or our 16 year old new drivers as well as old veteran drivers out there.
The issue on the "dump truck backhoe combo" only becomes and issue if you are combining over 26001 (private). Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but my trailer has a GVWR of 14,000#, minus the actual weight of 5600, leaves 8400 to put in the back. My tractor, with loader and backhoe attached weighs 5965, just under 3 ton.
Kevin, do you think I shouldn't be allowed to tow this? I really think I can and do it in a safe manor. Perhaps your thinking of these huge commercial backhoes, dump trucks over 26,000 and trailers the can carry a house on them. Well if thats the case, yup, you do need a CDL, and proper training, otherwise your probably going to get a summons. On a another note, I won't be allowing my 17 year old Daughter to go get a load of gravel anytime soon.
I share in some of your thoughts. Right now, its perfectly legal in our state to allow an 18 year old fireman to climb into our 3300 gal Freightliner water tender and drive it under emergency conditions (lights/siren) without a CDL.
Yes, we do train them first, but it isn't required....go figure! I personally think there should be more regulations on the issue...just my opinion. There is only a couple of us that drive it though.

Steve

I was hoping you could provide a better description of the 10,000# combined. It looks like it only applies to commercial and everyone else is exempt up to the 26,000 combined. Your right that I was an ametuer once growing up on a farm but have had a commercial liscense since 1972 and was trained by professionals. Anyone with common sense can certainly be safe and handle the loads. Farmers in particular just put any kid in a machine and go as they are exempt within 150 miles. I have talked to the local MDOT and the only answer they provide is that they know of all the abuse but have no man power to deal with it. Most of what I have written is from the manual or info from the local diesel bear. All the exemptions in the Michigan manual do make it a bit confusing. Once again I think your background makes you the authority !!

Thanks for your insight.

 

[Steve_a_reno]

Kevin,

This is an area of the law I am very unfirmilar with. None of these laws are in the Model traffic code for Municipalities because they are at the state level and violations of this sort are written into county courts...in Colorado any way. Im just digging into this since I found out recently, the mistake I made. I'm guessing the Feds have set a standard for states to follow starting with Class "C", non CDL combination of 26001.
Get a class "B" you can drive a single unit over 26,001 and tow up to 10,000.
Get a Class "A" you can drive a single unit over 26,001 and tow over 10,000.
This is whats in the Colorado CDL manual.

I also had the option to test for Class A, using my pickup truck/trailer combo and my license would have "N/T/T" for NO TRACTOR TRAILER.

Now if we aren't confused enough, I'll throw this in, in Colorado a commercial vehicle is also any combination rating (GCWR) of 10,000 lbs which the vehicle
is used in commerce on the public highways of the state. I'm not trying to kick another hornets nest, but anyone reading this, be careful how you register your private vehicles. If my pickup or trailer is registered in my company name, lets say Joe Blow's landscaping, thats commercial I'd say. How about what we are hauling? If I took my tractor in for repair, I'd say thats a private matter. If I'm hauling my tractor to do a backhoe job, and getting compensation, I'd say that was commerce or commercial. Not sure the State Troopers would ask, but I would count on that. I would suggest that when you register your private (Non CDL) vehicles, put them in your name and not your company if you plan to use them non commercially. I think it might save you grief down the road. Your state may have other definitions,
and this is only my opinion here in Colorado.

This has been a great discussion!

Steve

 

[QRTRHRS]

How about what we are hauling? If I took my tractor in for repair, I'd say thats a private matter. If I'm hauling my tractor to do a backhoe job, and getting compensation, I'd say that was commerce or commercial. Not sure the State Troopers would ask, but I would count on that. I would suggest that when you register your private (Non CDL) vehicles, put them in your name and not your company if you plan to use them non commercially. I think it might save you grief down the road. Your state may have other definitions,
and this is only my opinion here in Colorado.

This has been a great discussion!

Steve

Absolutely the state troopers will ask. This has been going around for a couple of years now especially with the folks hauling race cars, horses, etc.

Here you are with your trailer emblazoned with lettering, stickers, etc. pertaining to your activities and are pulled over. The officer may ask you if you had a good day. Seems innocent right? You say you won such and such. Guess what, you are now commercial since it is a business activity.

Now, perhaps in addition to a CDL, you need a med card and perhaps logs. And, don't forget that that radar detector on the dash is verboten in a commercial vehicle.

I really never heard of any small combos getting worked over hard like a level one inspection on a big rig but that breakaway switch better work.

 

[RayH]

When I had my part time business, I had a 1 ton dump rated for 14400lbs. Legally, in WV, the truck shouldve been commercial and be registered with the USDOT because I operated it for my business and across state lines (interstate commerce). But I kept it titled, licensed and insured to me personally and I had no business markings on it. As far as the DOT was concerned, it was a 1 ton dually just like every other 1 ton dually on the road except it had a dump bed.

 

[Andy-H]

RayH, Maybe I didn't describe my situation with the rental business owner, he needed me to have an,"A" license and was willing to pay for me to get it. We parted ways over the salary he wanted to pay. A month later landed a job with the railroad

 

[Jarrett]

I just scanned this straight from the Louisiana Driver's Manual for Commercial Vehicle Licensing.

 

[rback33]

Absolutely the state troopers will ask. This has been going around for a couple of years now especially with the folks hauling race cars, horses, etc.

Here you are with your trailer emblazoned with lettering, stickers, etc. pertaining to your activities and are pulled over. The officer may ask you if you had a good day. Seems innocent right? You say you won such and such. Guess what, you are now commercial since it is a business activity.

Now, perhaps in addition to a CDL, you need a med card and perhaps logs. And, don't forget that that radar detector on the dash is verboten in a commercial vehicle.

I really never heard of any small combos getting worked over hard like a level one inspection on a big rig but that breakaway switch better work.

There are animal husbandry exemptions... still governed by weight, air brakes and so forth... most large horse trailers and pickups are expempt...we run ours as a small business and I don't worry at all....

 

[CharlieTR]

So anyone one in the insurance biz know what the insurance company would do in case of an accident where a driver does not have proper CDL for his load? At the least I would think there is more liability risk if you don't have the CDL when needed.

 

[cp1969]

I don't know what would happen but I've got a pretty good guess--some insurance companies, not all, will use the fact that you are improperly licensed as an excuse to not pay.

 

[dmccarty]

Regarding registrations. A few years ago in NC If your GVW was over something like 6,500 pounds you needed a Commericial Plate. But to get a Commercial registration you had to be for hire or a business. Since my truck at the time had a CVW of around 8,500 pounds I could not have a regular registration. But since the truck was not a business truck and not for hire I could not have a Commercial plate. Thus, as I pointed out to the lady at the DMV, my truck was outside the registration statutes and my truck did not need a plate. She did not see the humor in this observation.

I got regular plates and registration on that truck.

Now there is a weighted registration which is what you see must PUs using.

Later,
Dan

 

[kevinj]

I just scanned this straight from the Louisiana Driver's Manual for Commercial Vehicle Licensing.

Look a bit further in the manual, Michigan has an exclusion for non commercial drivers hauling for personal use.