Inquiring Minds!

Jw5875 · Feb 3, 2006

There are days that the door should be closed as to to keep some people out i.e "Hey can I borrow your ------ because I'm just down the road broke down and I'll bring it back" or "Can I use this for a few days"?

Well the door was open and since it was a fairly nice day, I decided to take one of our famous (which we all have) 3 lb. coffee cans out to the drive way, dump and look for ___---??? that we know we have from ???--- (and it is in our memory)

Along come a few of the local kids and stops to look, inquiring minds sees the machinery (Lathe, Drill Press, Milling Machine, Torches, Band Saw,Welder, and our usual collection of pieces of metal that we KNOW we can use for something). Along with the "Prodjects" we started. Now they see tractor pictures, parts and who knows what all from this conglomerate in my shop/garage.

"Hey Mister, What is that and what does it do"? pointing to the
drill press. Well I said, "You drill holes in metal on that machine"

The look on his face told me to be ready: "The "Sign on that (Drill Press) says 10" "Does that drill a hole 10" deep or 10" Wide"? So the next hour or so I tried to explain " --" drill press,
"--" lathes, "--" grinders and explain the "--" automobile wheel.

Now, I would like to know if "Vocational Skills" are still being taught in the schools in your area. I have a "Vocational Diploma" from my school system (60's era) i.e wood shop, mechanical drawing, metal shop, auto mechanics, with physical science and lots of math and English.

A long post, but if you should ever have "Inquiring Minds" be prepared to set them for the future!

jw5875

Dmace · Feb 4, 2006

That's how it goes today. If it's not controlled or operated by a computer or video gaming system, then they don't know how to use it or what it is. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

5030 · Feb 4, 2006

Jw5875:

Computers are nice ( we communicate here with them), but who is going to make the hard parts, the prototypes, someone has to build it first before machines (CNC) can produce it. Skilled trades are extinct. Yes, it can be designed via CAD, but, people who get their hands dirty are not here anymore, at least their numbers are declining everyday.

Disciplines like machine shop, pattern making and foundry aren't taught in public schools today because of the liability issue. A school system can't get liability insurance for that.

A very unfortunate scenario.

Bob_Young · Feb 4, 2006

I think it's part of a conspiracy to turn the U.S. into a backward third world nation dependent on the Chinese and Koreans. In the minds of many (not mine) 'It would serve us right'.

Havoctec · Feb 4, 2006

It depends on the school district. I actually teach high school students woodworking, metalworking, drafting and electronics. I believe most schools still offer some form of vocational classes. Unfortunately, these classes are usually electives and most kids/parents don't see the relevance that these classes have for them.

Hopefully our society will see the light before china takes over. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

ToadHill · Feb 4, 2006

In our area Vocational training is offered at schools set up by several districts. BOCES Board of Cooperative Education Services. they have Auto , Carpentry, Machinist, Building Maint, Home Ecc., LPN, and some other courses. Unfortunately for years this is the area they sent kids who, were not "College Material" so it became a stigma to go there. Lately ( in the last 10 years) employers have started to see the value of looking at these schools for potential employees. The kids go half day to accidemic classes and half day to BOCES.

RedRocker · Feb 4, 2006

I don't think they teach that stuff any more around here.

PineRidge · Feb 4, 2006

Tools, tools???? Have you seen the expression on these kids faces when the cash register quits working at a restaurant? Why the majority of them have no idea how to make change from a 20 dollar bill for an $18.95 meal, and if you throw a hundred dollar bill at them, well forget about that!

I don't think it has anything to do with how much they are being taught, I think it has to do with how much they decide to absorb.

5030 · Feb 4, 2006

Mike:

The rate of absorbtion depends on the amount of moisture already present in the parent material. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

kossetx · Feb 4, 2006

I teach in Spring, a suberb of Houston. From what I've gathered, there is hardly any trades being taught in the large cities. The mindset is that everyone should go to college, although the failure and dropout rates shows otherwise. I gather from talking to other teachers that it is somewhat different in smaller towns or more rural areas.

I teach Tech Ed. It is mostly a computer based class that teaches robotics, CADD, engineering in various forms, and some electricity. On my own, I also teach measurement and addition and subtraction of feet and inches in whole numbers and fractions of an inch. I butt my head against a wall for 2 weeks doing it, but I feel the students need to understand measurement.

I do have a woodshop attached to my class, but I am supposed to teach the computer lab first and do only a few projects in the shop. My district also does not fund any woodshop projects, instead requiring me to collect money from the students for their projects.

I do not like the way education is and is headed, but I have faith in our young that they will do the best they can with what they get. They are who we were, and are.

rox · Feb 4, 2006

Havotec,
yes he way the system is set up the kids who want to go to college, er rather their parents want them to go to college, have to take so many basic education classes, English, math, science, foreign language that they literally ahve practically no time left in their schedules to take any clases like you teach. I wish the colleges would not require 4 years of all these other subjects so that the kids had time to take some shop classes. he only shop class my son ever took was at his Lutheran Grade School, and he loved it.

I totally would have encouraged him to take shop classes, but unfortunately they literally can't, if they want to go to college. What can the kids and parents do, the colleges and universities require all the other classes?

LeadPoison · Feb 4, 2006

I think some poeple have the definition of "education" confused these days.

Whatever you learn should allow you to ACCOMPLISH something. An education should allow someone to earn a living when it's done or allow them to be independent.

Schools teach nothing but theory for the most part these days.
I can't tell you how many college grads "know about" there field, but couldn't "do" it. All educations should have an apprenticeship so that students get practical experience.

cp1969 · Feb 4, 2006

( I can't tell you how many college grads "know about" there field, but couldn't "do" it.) I see examples of this constantly. Kids with Masters degrees in Mechanical Engineering who have never changed the oil in their cars. They want to sit at a computer terminal for eight hours a day, but only until they can get into "management." It is a truly sad, rotten state of affairs.

All educations should have an apprenticeship so that students get practical experience. ) I think the Europeans are way ahead of us in this area.

While I'm in rant mode, I might as well get this off my chest. One of the all-time, stupidest things I ever heard come out of the mouth of a politician was when Bill Clinton said "Every child should get a college education." Why??? So that EVERYBODY can be underemployed? If ever I have dectected a common thread among disgruntled workers, it is that they have invested a ton of money in an education for which their employer has no apparent use.

Jstpssng · Feb 4, 2006

You can look at it another way; the kids were obviously interested, and maybe- just maybe- in at least one of them, that interest will grow, because of the time you spent with them.

5030 · Feb 4, 2006

Kossetex:

""I do not like the way education is and is headed, but I have faith in our young that they will do the best they can with what they get. They are who we were, and are.""

They are?
I don't think so. How many of your students can read a 50 division vernier caliper, know what a tenth reading micrometer is or know how to extrapolate the sine of 48 degrees, 18 minutes and 20 seconds or sharpen a drill or a pencil for that matter. Computers are a wonderful tool along with CAD/Cam and infinite design, however, I stated before, someone has to make the prototype part, who is going to do that?

Any machine or device whether it's electronic or mechanical is made up of parts or assemblies that have to be machined or produced in order to make the final product. Someone has to do that. That's what I fear most about the future......nobody is home anymore. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

DrewL · Feb 4, 2006

Drill presses have been around for a long time and that same seemingly stupid question could have been asked 50 years ago. HOWEVER, look at what is being taught today vs a very short 10 years ago.................. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif....................

If anyone cares to look at the driving force of todays education (public) I dare say you'd vomit.

JoeR · Feb 4, 2006

This was a topic my wife and I were discussing last week. My 18 year old nephew has no vocational skills. Can't change oil, mower blade, etc... I go to Home Depot yesterday and ask for a drop light. I get, "what is that? Recess lighting?" I said no, drop light, work light, you know... Work on a car with??? Oh yeah! Then I ask for a come along or cable pulley. Another blank look. Unbelievable!

Anyway, I told my wife that not everyone wants to go to college nor is everyone capable. Yet, it is the duty of our education system to prepare the youth for the future. Now our local school district no longer offers Vocational Education, yet they have an Adult Technical Education Center. So, they charge these kids after High School to learn Vocation Education. Ridiculous!

When I was in High School, I took 3 years of Electrical Wiring, and I had every intention of going to college. When I graduated H.S., I was offered numerous jobs to start into the electrical field. To this day, I still believe the best teacher I had was my electrical wiring teacher! I personally hated high school, but I looked forward to my electrical wiring class. Althoguh, what really ticked me off was that I was labeled as not college bound by the counselors since I took a vocation class. What a load of manure! I preferred shop to Calculus! Big deal! I ended up taking Calculus 1 to 3 and Differential Equations in college. I loved it! I just couldn't stand the "Preppy's" in high school and tried to avoid any classes with them.

Got me on a rant, since this is one my personal hot topics with the education system. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Joe

JustGary · Feb 4, 2006

"I stated before, someone has to make the prototype part, who is going to do that?" 

I know this may surprise some folks, but some of the 3-D printers are absolutely amazing these days. When you think your CAD drawing is ready, you simply print your part in plastic. When you have the plastic parts right, you send your program to the CNC shop.

It's kind of slow, but not nearly as slow or expensive as a guy reading a drawing and making a prototype, then welding in all of the holes he put in from the wrong side then drilling them again...

I have seen missiles launched out of tubes made on a 3-D plastic printer. Amazing stuff, I tell you.

You're right that everyone should have a firm foundation, but don't assume that since you met a few deadbeats that all the rest are too. Kids are still growing up in their dad's machine shops, and you can't get all of your education in the schoolhouse anyway. If you want to help make a dent with the rest of them, go sign up as a merit badge counsellor at your local Boy Scout troop. Yup, they'll break a few tool bits and make a mess of your shop, but you can't measure (even with a vernier caliper) the education you'll give them...

- Just Gary

bugstruck · Feb 5, 2006

I agree that some of these kids are sharp, but few are real sharp. Reason they don't make the REAL level is...they don't grow up falling out of trees, bending and breaking things with their hands, digging out the side of streams and making dams, etc. and observing the results. There is a whole area of the brain that never gets developed. By the age of say 10 or 12 it's too late for them to absorb it. I can tell you that in the construction business most non-college bound new hires can't read a tape measure, much less add or deduct imperial measurements. They mostly don't have the sense to anticipate what happens with materials, of any sort, in real world application. They are a genuine safety problem right off and you have to be attuned to that and compensate. At the higher level of construction all of the new hire Project Managers are degreed. They may know how to do a critical path schedule, write a contract, and budget a project, but they can't do a good number of practical things that job requires for excellence. Can't do it at 25 and while they adjust, they still can't excel at 35. The only good thing about all this is that us geesers can still run circles around them after their 10 plus years in. So we'll be working a good long while yet. Bad for the Country though. Gotta admit though, with CAD I have managed to forget nearly all my trig. Nothing a few hours in a book wouldn't bring back but why bother? So there are some good things in the seeming lack of progress...... I have better tools. We seldom prototype anymore. Design it, tweak it, send it to the machines for machining and processing, and assemble. That is a one improvement I wouldn't trade the old for.

cp1969 · Feb 5, 2006

( I know this may surprise some folks, but some of the 3-D printers are absolutely amazing these days. When you think your CAD drawing is ready, you simply print your part in plastic. When you have the plastic parts right, you send your program to the CNC shop.)

Stereolithography is another that does the same thing. Neither is accurate enough except for crude designs, at this point. Slip-fit, no-shake fit is nowhere on the horizon for either of these methods of rapid prototyping due to the very nature of them--they don't produce metal parts. Both are great methods of producing loose-tolerance, non-metallic parts if that is what you need.

The methods to produce metallic prototype or low production run parts are just now getting off the ground. I can't remember the acronyms but have seen demos of methods which use powdered metal and a laser to build parts from scratch, including blind, hollow cavities and even transition from one material to another within the same part--i.e., start with steel on one end and continuously transition to copper on the other end. However, at this time, the tolerances held by this method are even worse than the wax printers or stereolith.

None of this elimates or even reduces the need for vocational training, though. It may take a PhD to design such a system, but it won't take a BS to run it or maintain it.