Is it just me, or does this go too far?

[ducati996]

http://www.deere.com/en_US/ProductCatalog/HO/series/HO_cut_2000_series.html?link=lcff


Lift up to 1277lbs†

"†Up to 1.5 meters or 59 inches."

I've got a problem when tractor companies do this. I think we are starting to verge on deceptive advertising here. Right on the main page for the 2000 series Deere is claiming that the 200cx lifts 1277 lbs. But keep reading, no where does it say where they came up with that figure. Its over double the loaders real world performance! In all liklyhood its from the pivot pin where no loads are lifted from. In the fine print they point out that its up to 59" - so its not to full height where every other company takes their measurements. At somepoint someone is going to have to file a false advertising lawsuit to stop these kinda things. There are too many companies stretching the truth too far. The average comsumer has no idea what they are buying and no fair basis for comparing two machines.

Yes, I am a competing dealer - however I'd be saying the same thing is Kubota or New Holland did this stuff. I've called out Mahindra and Kioti for doing this too. This instance deserves mention though because its the first time I've seen anything measured below full lift height.

I dont have a problem with that at all - they have the little disclaimer and the height listed pretty clearly. The specifications they have on the loader are pretty solid in details, and spell it out. My personal experience is the loader ratings are very conservative. I have a 4100 with 410 loader, and lifted a 1096 lb block of concrete to full height into a 3/4 yard masonary dump truck - an F550 to be exact. I know the weight of the block because I had to go to a weigh station, and was charged accordingly. I was so inspired that I eventually got my own F550, and have filled a 61" bucket repeatedly (wet dirt or 3/4 stone) to max height each and everytime. The loader or tractor has not been tampered with - all stock

I would be interested on what model from Kubuta ( I ssume B7610HSD) that would be comparable to Deeres 2320 & 2520. If you dont mind can you supply me the true lift ability for this machine (or machines)?

 

[rockyridgefarm]

What is sad is that these are all fine machines. But someone is going to underbuy based on this misinformation. Someone is going to get hurt.

I know that the dealer that I bought my present machine from would have thrown a fit at these claims. Maybe more dealers should. But sadly, he is no longer a dealer, Deere took back the sign, while many of the other guys that are still around seem to know a lot less.

 

[MessickFarmEqu]

I would be interested on what model from Kubuta ( I ssume B7610HSD) that would be comparable to Deeres 2320 & 2520. If you dont mind can you supply me the true lift ability for this machine (or machines)?

Well, here is how it works. I'll play games with my numbers just like Deere is. Take the B2630, the rough equilivant to the 2520. Its LA403 loader is spec'ed out at 882lbs. That is the real world measurement - weight in the physical bucket and raising it up to the full height of the loader. Now we play the Deere game, first lets go back to the pivot pin - now the same loader majicly lifts 1091 lbs even though no load ever sits over the pin. However thats not good enough, because there is probably some company somewhere publishing a better figure. So now we lower the load just a foot, at this point the same loader is probably capable of around 1500lbs. Heck we can keep dropping down lower still. Its a safe bet this tractor will lift over a 2000lbs and get it up off the ground. SO LETS USE THAT NUMBER! Remeber now, this loader will only lift 880lbs of dirt... but according to your logic here its just fine to tell people that it will lift 2000lbs.

Deere is lying to its customers, plain and simple.


Good point about the Nabraska tests, one thing to consider is that Nabraska is not the only tractor testing center. Both New Holland's TN and Kubota's M are tested at another independant center outside the USA. This centers results are what's used to determine their literature. The usefulness of the Nebraska tests has been an issue for awhile, there has been talk for a long time that the funding would be pulled from that center completly. Some of the tractor companies actually sued the state at one point to try and get Nebraska to accept the testing data from the other centers. I'm not sure where that suit went. While the data certinaly is interesting, its not outright deception which is the case here.

 

[Bob_Skurka]

What is sad is that these are all fine machines. But someone is going to underbuy based on this misinformation. Someone is going to get hurt.

And that is why I tend to get on a soap box about this issue. When one company publishes numbers like this, it makes it virtually impossible to compare this loader to

• the real world needs of the user
• any other loader that is advertised using any other standards

So while it is bad enough that some companies provide "pivot point" specs, it is worse when they take non-standard measurements on top of it.

Now we play the Deere game, first lets go back to the pivot pin - now the same loader majicly lifts 1091 lbs even though no load ever sits over the pin. However thats not good enough, because there is probably some company somewhere publishing a better figure. So now we lower the load just a foot, at this point the same loader is probably capable of around 1500lbs. Heck we can keep dropping down lower still. Its a safe bet this tractor will lift over a 2000lbs and get it up off the ground. SO LETS USE THAT NUMBER! Remeber now, this loader will only lift 880lbs of dirt... but according to your logic here its just fine to tell people that it will lift 2000lbs.

YUP, very well said Neil. The simple laws of physics come into play. Simply put, a loader will a lot more weight 1 foot off the ground than it will lift 5 feet off the ground and it will lift more weight 5 feet off the ground than it will lift to full height. So Deere is just playing with numbers to confuse buyers. I suppose that some buyer like to be dilluded into believe they got more than they paid for. But to go back to Mike's point above, someone is going to be fooled and will buy too small of a tractor and end up wasting a lot of money.

Take a look at this thread, here someone was educated by folks on TBN before he wasted his money, but would have ended up with a financial blunder had he not come here. http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85068

 

[MessickFarmEqu]

"Of course, this is also a European spec, which they can claim only applies to the market that it is listed..."


Here is another conspiracy theory for you. Why is it so difficult to find said information? Deere has an amazing website, bar none, its way beyond what any other company has put together. Why then is it so hard to find this information? I can find loader specs from anyone, even TYM in minutes, but we have to go to Deere's EU website to find anything? Am I the only one that finds this weird? Maybe they need to spend less time putting together little movies and more time educating people about their product.

 

[MossRoad]

Simply put, a loader will a lot more weight 1 foot off the ground than it will lift 5 feet off the ground and it will lift more weight 5 feet off the ground than it will lift to full height.

Sounds like weak hydraulics. The Power Tracs lift the rear end off the ground before the loader quits.

But seriously, when I was shopping for tractors, I had to make a spreadsheet to keep track of the lift capacities at different heights and pivot points, etc... because none of the companies seemed to measure from the same points and distances. I saw it as marketing at its finest. They want their product to look better than the other guy's product. As long as the truth is in there somewhere in the fine print, they'll keep doing it. It's up to the buyer to do his or her homework and make the comparrisons.

 

[rockyridgefarm]

When I bought my 4000TEN, all those specs were there, although a bit convoluted to locate. With the TWENTY series pfft! they are gone! And trust me - I can DIG.

There is no excuse for each of the manufacturers not having FULL specs for EACH configuration of EVERY machine. (like the earlier post that listed the same loader on 4 different models.

Don't forget that loader specs are more than hydraulic pressure+cylinder+leverage... A loader may be able to lift more than it is safely rated. Wheelbase and ballast are crucial to safe operation.

In ny earlier tongue in cheek 'example' even if a 2520 could handle a haybale's static weight, it would be disasterous in the real condition where feeding is done.

And I am not unscathed by this issue. I handle 1300Lb bales with my 4310. But I cannot lift them with the loader. I was under the impression that I could handle 1000Lb bales due to this same fiasco, when I purchased. I am OK, but would have more options if I had stepped up to the next larger loader. And yet, I am quite happy with what I have, knowing its limitations.

 

[InlineDieselFan]

As mentioned "buyer beware." this not only goes for tractors but just about everything.

The pick-up manufacturers measure HP and Torque at the flywheel, but how much do you lose through 'thier' shoddy design drivetrain. HP and torque at the rear wheels matter, to a point. But how you measure that is also a consideration. Sure you get 300 HP, but at 3200 RPM, who drives at that RPM, oh and the torque curve fell off the page at 2800 rpm.

I would like a Nebraska test for all tractors so that the consumer could truly compare apples to apples.

Teh same for cars, trucks, refridgerators the whole list, but that is wishfull thinking. Do lots of research and comparison shopping, try to do test drives to make your decision.

steve

 

[JerryG]

I will try and locate the complete loader specs. But I don't think I have ever seen them on the current offerings. Imagine that!

Heck, I couldn't find any spec on those loaders. I killed about an hour on the JD site last night trying to find the specs that Neal was talking about and never did find anything. I was amazed at the amount of stuff that was on there about the ease of everything like was stated here about like an auto and lawn mower.

 

[rockyridgefarm]

I forgot to point out, the specs that I posted were from Stoneham's Deere Dealership (the pdf's) or from cached copies of removed ones...

Pretty sorry.

If you Google Deere Specifications, you will find these discussions on TBN. Maybe frustrated buyers will find there way here and be properly educated!