is this a power beyond valve?

[Chrisb62]

in the pictures. the bolt thats blocked off by the levers.

 

[swnoel]

Looks like it might be. See if there's anything on the flat spot near the port.

 

[Dave M7040]

I see 6 hoses so if that is correct there is no power beyond at the present.

I also see galvanized plumbing street elbows used which is a big No No as they are not designed for the pressures in a hydraulic system.

Further, teflon tape is used everywhere to make improper fittings. That product contributes tiny strings to the hydraulic system which is bad for the pump and valves.

If you need another hydraulic circuit suggest you start with a new FEL valve with the correct hydraulic fittings and with a power beyond sleeve in it.

Alternatively, you install another single spool control valve ahead of the current FEL valve and then new valve feeds the old valve with its power beyond circuit.

Dave M7040

 

[Chrisb62]

Is this what i would need?

MD3 2-Spool Directional Control Valve | Princess Auto

With the power beyond valve that goes with it?


MD3 NPT Power Beyond Plug | Princess Auto

 

[Dave M7040]

Is this what i would need?

MD3 2-Spool Directional Control Valve | Princess Auto

With the power beyond valve that goes with it?


MD3 NPT Power Beyond Plug | Princess Auto

Chris

There is a bit more to choosing a FEL valve if you want to be happy in the end.
.
The valve you have selected is rated for 25 gpm. Your tractor has no where near that flow rate I expect

When you put too large a flow rated control valve on, you loose the ability to control a loader in fine movements such as a buddy in the bucket and you want to move the bucket slowly and smoothly.

Do you want a joystick? Sometimes owners with a FEL and want to add a grapple, will have the loader functions controlled by a joystick and right beside the joystick is a lever to control the grapple.

Do you want a float position. Most owners, once they understand the purpose for that feature, want it. It is used to smooth ground or gravel by back dragging the FEL bucket. The loader arms in the float position allow the bucket to move up and down without being influenced by the tractor's weight which changes as you go over humps or into hollows.

Do you need a regen feature on the bucket circuit. Picture this scenario. You have a heavy load of gravel in the bucket. As you start to dump the bucket, the weight in the bucket starts the bucket dumping faster the the flow of oil from the pump. You can end up with a condition sometimes called a "floppy bucket." because both sides of the bucket cylinders are not full of oil.
With the regen feature, oil is taken from one side of the bucket cylinders and used to fill up the other side of the cylinders which happens faster than a low flow rate pump can do.

FEL load regeneration feature

What is "Regen" or the "Regenerative" function of a FEL Valve? Read it here
Regen is a "feature" of most modern FEL (Front End Loader) valves, it's on the Dump (joystick far right) circuit, and is also referred to as "Fast Dump". The reason it is nice to have is that without it, the weight of a filled bucket can actually "pull" the bucket down faster then the fluid can enter the other side of the cylinder, this will create a air pocket and give the bucket a "floppy" feeling until the joystick is held in the dump mode a few seconds to refill the cylinder pushing the air past the seals. So we add "regen" or "regenerative" function to the valve.

Regen solves this problem by actually filling both sides of the cylinder at the same time with hydraulic fluid. But how will that work you might ask? Well, because there is more volume on the side of the cylinder that extends it since the rod is taking up space in the other side, it "overpowers" the rod side and lets the cylinder extend-thereby dumping the bucket. So since now both sides of the cylinder are "pressurized", the air pocket can not develop, eliminating the "floppy" bucket syndrome. One other added bonus is that the bucket actually dumps faster due to the higher flow rate required to do all this, that's why it's referred to as "fast dump" sometimes.

So, now you may be asking “This is cool and all that, but why do I need to know about it?” The answer to that is simple, if you ever try to run a snow plow with two SA (single acting) cylinders, or a cylinder that drives a chute rotator on a snowblower you will soon find out that they won’t work if you push the joystick to far right in the regen mode. The plow won’t work because since both lines are pressurized-both cylinders will be trying to extend at the same time binding everything up. The rotator won’t work because there is no weight pushing the cylinder closed like there is on the loader.
On most, if not all John Deere tractors there is a “lockout” the limits how far the joystick travels to the right to keep it out of the regen mode.

You have not stated why you need power beyond. For someone like me to help you, I need a complete picture of what you are wanting your tractor to do.

I suggest you do some homework and establish the flow and pressure rating of your tractor. Next have a clear picture of what you are trying to accomplish.
Then call the Tech support people at Cross Manufacturing. Before calling look over on their site the many options for loader valves.
Hydraulic Directional Control Valves Model DV | Cross

My goal in suggesting Cross is not to have you necessarily buy their product but rather, when you do decide what you want to accomplish you are not just blindly grabbing something from Princess Auto.

Dave M7040

 

[Chrisb62]

Ok i see what you're saying.

I'm trying to run a 3 point hitch backhoe.

It's a Ford 3000 with a front loader. Whether it came with that loader originally i have no idea.

It has the pump on the crank. But i can't find any info about how many gpm it is or anything about the valve on there. But the loader runs great. Almost too fast. I think it would run the backhoe just fine.

Ive been considering a PTO pump but the cost is getting expensive. So i was hoping i already had a power beyond valve which would save some cash.

The backhoe has quick connectors on it already. I was hoping it would just be a matter of adding the same to the power beyond and return lines.

 

[Dave M7040]

Chris

This valve may be the simplest solution for you.

It takes the supply to your FEL valve and sends it to either the FEL valve or to another circuit like a backhoe.

When in the backhoe position, the FEL will stay locked in place as the fluid is trapped in the cylinders. The fEL bucket can be a stabilizer for the backhoe operation.

Regardless, for my piece of mind plse replace the plumbing fittings.

I recently cautioned the owner of a tractor with a backhoe about the dangers of hydraulics. He had a hose leak and repaired it with a piece of metal and two hose clamps. Now he had nothing working, hoe, FEL, power steering and the pump was making a grinding sound. He came to the forum for the first time looking for a quick solution.
.
He reacted very badly to my cautions suggesting he did not need a Fxxking father figure, etc. Clearly he was clueless and in being so, a danger to himself and others.
Expect me, if you look for my advice, to be making safety a priority in the advice I give.

Have you read about the dangers of invisible jets of hydraulic fluid being injected through your skin and into your body. All of us have held our hand over a hose leak. Do the same thing on a hydraulic leak and get to the hospital fast.

Here is a link to basic info about your tractor. 5 gpm.

TractorData.com Ford 3 tractor information

Dave m7040

 

[Chrisb62]

i appreciate the info. i run excavators, dozers, rubber tire backhoes, etc. for a living. so safety is ingrained in my mind. however im no mechanic or hydraulic expert. we have other guys for that haha.
but now that i have the space and a tractor, with some work to do around the property, ive found im needing to figure these things out. im still trying to figure out why this guy i got the tractor off used pipe fittings, the proper ones are cheap too. "shrug". anyways, the plan is to replace them all and a few hoses, however i was waiting until i figured out this backhoe hook up so i could get all the right stuff.

ive seen that tractor data link. however i assumed the 5gpm was for the tractor hydraulics at the rear? cuz the loader has its own off the crank at the front of the motor. unless that would also be 5?

that selector valve was my first thought, but then saw the actual control valve on sale for only $100ish more, even for the joystick one, so thought that made more sense, but youre probably right at 25gpm it would be uncontrollable.

 

[Dave M7040]

Chris
As I look at for photos again, I see a hydraulic reservoir on the side of the loader frame.

With you talking about a pump on the front of the engine, it makes sense that the loader pump is just for the loader and will be probably higher than 5 gpm.

Is there any model or brand info on the loader. Allied perhaps. Same for the pump, brand , model etc.

Post some photos of the pump and its hose connections to the loader valve and reservoir.

If you find any loader info and if you throughly clean the loader valve so you can see any markings or label info, other options may be possible.

Dave M7040

 

[Chrisb62]

From what i can tell from pics online is it's either a ford 771 or 772 loader.

The only markings on the pump is this "H77AR1B".

I'll have to clean up the loader valve in the morning and see what i can find out.

 

[Chrisb62]

Also something else.
There's no hydraulic oil filter on the loader. I want to add one. Does it go on the high pressure line before the valves? Or on the return line before the reservoir? Or after the reservoir?

 

[Dave M7040]

This is what I believe the pump delivers.
15.4 gpm at 2,000 rpm.

Filter has to go where it is low pressure.

By being on suction side of pump, the pump is getting cleanest oil possible.

Filter needs to be big enough not to starve pump.
Hydraulic fluid needs to be high quality very fluid so no restriction to suction.

Dave M7040

 

[Chrisb62]

Wow that's great. Thanks a lot.

I'm thinking for the price and ease. I'm gonna consider the selector valve. I've gotta replace that hose anyway. So i might as well put this in line and give it a shot. I'll just have to get a tee fitting for the return to the reservoir i suppose.

 

[swnoel]

Ok i see what you're saying.

I'm trying to run a 3 point hitch backhoe.

It's a Ford 3000 with a front loader. Whether it came with that loader originally i have no idea.

It has the pump on the crank. But i can't find any info about how many gpm it is or anything about the valve on there. But the loader runs great. Almost too fast. I think it would run the backhoe just fine.

Ive been considering a PTO pump but the cost is getting expensive. So i was hoping i already had a power beyond valve which would save some cash.

The backhoe has quick connectors on it already. I was hoping it would just be a matter of adding the same to the power beyond and return lines.

After looking at it again, it's possible that's a relief valve. Shut off the tractor, take off the pressure and remove the cap. You'll find out what it is. If it's power beyond you should be able to use it to power another valve.

 

[Dave M7040]

Chris
In your existing setup, the relief valve is in the FEL valve block.

With the selector valve, you need to make certain the backhoe valve has a built in relief.

You will also need to keep an eye on oil temps as the backhoe is constantly moving and will heat the small reservoir much faster than a FEL

Dave M7040

 

[ericm979]

What's a good way to add a temperature gauge to an existing hydraulic system?

 

[swnoel]

Chris
In your existing setup, the relief valve is in the FEL valve block.

With the selector valve, you need to make certain the backhoe valve has a built in relief.

You will also need to keep an eye on oil temps as the backhoe is constantly moving and will heat the small reservoir much faster than a FEL

Dave M7040

Dave, sounds like you're familiar with this valve, I'm not. If you'd be so kind I have a couple of questions for you. Chris' original question was what was that bold/ nut next to the lever? I thought it might be the adjustment for a relief or possibly a PB port. Could you explain to me what this is? If a valve has PB does it mean it has to have 7 hoses? Thanks

 

[BHD]

if you wanting to hook up a modern" back hoe, on that tractor, make sure you have enough Hydraulic pressure to operate the hoe,

a lot of tractors in the that era, only produced about 1100 psi, of hydraulic pressure,
most "modern" hydraulic systems are in the 2200 to 3000 psi range,

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

and from what I can tell I think your looking at the Pressure relief valve on the valve block,

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

For a temp gauge is a tee, and fitting for the temp gauge or sender,

 

[Tx Jim]

Dave, sounds like you're familiar with this valve, I'm not. If you'd be so kind I have a couple of questions for you. Chris' original question was what was that bold/ nut next to the lever? I thought it might be the adjustment for a relief or possibly a PB port. Could you explain to me what this is? If a valve has PB does it mean it has to have 7 hoses? Thanks

I'm not Dave but the valve in photo below appears to be an adjustable relief valve. Yes hyd control valve with power beyond when attached to open center system will normally have 7 hoses attached to it.

 

[Dave M7040]

Dave, sounds like you're familiar with this valve, I'm not. If you'd be so kind I have a couple of questions for you. Chris' original question was what was that bold/ nut next to the lever? I thought it might be the adjustment for a relief or possibly a PB port. Could you explain to me what this is? If a valve has PB does it mean it has to have 7 hoses? Thanks

Let me combine two answers in one post.
Chris wants to add a temp gauge.
This electrical type would be the easiest. At the tank there is a return elbow for the fluid returning to the tank.

You install a tee instead of the elbow and in the open hole on the Tee you install the temp sensor using the necessary bushings.

The "assembly" beside the two control levers is the adjustable relief valve. Most open center farm tractor type loader valves have them.

Let me explain a little further. Should you have a power beyond circuit coming from the loader valve and going to a second control valve,for a top and tilt for example, the second control valve also has a relief valve.

The FEL relief valve is set at 2,200 psi just to pick a figure. No matter what you do to the relief valve on the top and tilt control, it will never produce pressures higher than the FEL relief valve as the FEL relief is dumping any pressure above its setting. If you wanted the top and tilt relief valve set to 1,500 psi, you can do that and not affect the FEL pressures as they are first in line from the pump.

Please don't hesitate to ask any question. We all started with no knowledge at one point and it is the obligation for a few like me who have a bit more to share with others who want to learn.

Currently Chris' loader valve has a return line to the tank or reservoir. This is necessary for several reasons but a critical one is to provide a place for the relief valve to get rid of excess pressure.

On his normal loader valve there is a high pressure supply from the hydraulic pump. there are 4 work lines going to the double acting lift arm and bucket cylinders.

One high pressure supply line
One tank or return line
Four work lines

Total of six

Six is the basic number of lines a double spool FEL valve must have.

If there is a seventh line, that tells me that it is a power beyond line because it is above the number for simple FEL operation.

Sometimes you find uneducated people using the tank port to feed another hydraulic circuit. They cannot see why a line, which has fluid flowing in it, cannot be a pressure line for another valve.

There are design reasons too complicated to go into why this is a bad practice but the specification of most valves shows a simple reason not to do it.

The green arrow shows the design working pressure of the valve. The red arrow shows the much smaller design pressure of the tank port.

The only reason it is even 500 psi is in case you are using the tank port to supply a return line filter which creates some restriction in the flow of oil going back to the tank or reservoir.


This is an example of where a power beyond plug or sleeve would go.

This next fancy sketch is the type of Google search find that seriously misleads owners. It is using the out or tank port of the first valve to feed the second valve.

It is both wrong and dangerous.

Another WRONG example this time from youtube.

Power beyond is also called High Pressure Carry Over HPCO which is a better term to describe what is happening.

More questions, just ask. i never give short answers

Dave M7040