JD Right to Repair

[ovrszd]

Excellent post. It's good to have the perspective of someone with actual industry experience with similar tools, even if not directly in the tractor industry.

WRT your last statement, most cell phones today work as an internet hot spot today. So for true "in the field" failures, any device that works on WiFi can hop thru your cell phone for internet access. If diag device is Ethernet only, then just rent/buy a cheap internet hot spot device from RedPocket or Mint Mobile, or insert WiFi adapter between diag tool and cell phone.

When I watched my first documentary on the right to repair debate several years ago, one of the interviewees was a farmer who had to pay many thousands of dollars to transport a combine to his dealer, just to read the error codes off the machine. The repair ended up being a very minor thing, almost nothing in comparison to the cost of transport. These are the guys of which I was thinking in my earlier post.

I question the integrity of your example. The JD Tech could have came to the machine, wherever it was, and accessed the codes and even transmitted them to JD if needed to resolve the issue.

I'd rather say the farmer didn't want to pay the JD Tech service charges to come to the field. So he chose to haul. Which he probably had the ability to do.

I in no way am making light of the frustration for the owner of the machine.

 

[ovrszd]

Open source or gtfo

Electrical engineer and programmer

What is gtfo?

Are you stating that you are an Electrical Engineer and Programmer?

 

[WinterDeere]

I question the integrity of your example. The JD Tech could have came to the machine, wherever it was, and accessed the codes and even transmitted them to JD if needed to resolve the issue.

I'd rather say the farmer didn't want to pay the JD Tech service charges to come to the field. So he chose to haul. Which he probably had the ability to do.

I in no way am making light of the frustration for the owner of the machine.

It was so long ago that I honestly don't remember the details. But you are right, it would have made more sense to have the tech come to the machine. Trying to remember now, it's possible he was griping about the cost of either option, driving a tech out to his remote location vs. hauling machine to dealer, in light of not being able to diagnose and repair using his local (non-Deere) tech.

What is gtfo?

Are you stating that you are an Electrical Engineer and Programmer?

"GTFO" = Get The F Out

But these sound like the words of a disgruntled engineer who doesn't actually deal with the business side of the engineering business... or reliability, or compliance. There are legit reasons they don't have open source.

 

[hiddentacocatneddih]

Companies need to quit locking out parts and making them require "programming" for the sake of just keeping the average owner from replacing simple parts. Apple serializing simple chips like charge controller chips. Taking an off the shelf part and making it slightly unique but functionally the same so you cannot use the off the shelf part. The holding the vendor hostage to not sell any chips to anyone but apple

Obvisouly you dont want the flight computer of an aircraft open source but a cell phone ? Watch?

I use open source 3d printer software, computer operating systems, programs tools. It's a great eco system

Disgruntled? Ya, a little after dealing with damn lisence key dongles

Open source tools are reliable since many more developers have access to find and fix bugs

Security? Look at solar winds. Nothing is secure

 

[boatmoter]

I thought of posting a comment pertaining to this on the John Deere Parts thread that has been going on for a while, but thought that this could derail that thread, so here's a new one that is focused on this issue.

Modern technology can be very handy -- when it works right. But when it starts to flake out, or "posts a code", where do you start? in Sept, JD made a sacrificial offering in response (which was a big nothingburger) to a Right to Repair lawsuit and said that repair manuals and some stuff would be available, but the access to key software, etc, would remain restricted.

I'm sticking with older machines that have none of this nonsense software, even though I'm a software engineer myself. My newest tractor is the 2210, with no electronics, no codes, and no problems. There's no way in h3ll I'm going to be getting anything newer that requires DEF and goes into conniptions with a regeneration cycle, not to mention what happens when an electronic module goes burp.

Similarly, who wants to sign up to get one of these highly autonomous cars that does everything for you? Sure, that might be handy, but just wait a few years. These things are just packed with sensors and electronic modules that are loaded up with software. Good luck fixing that yourself, and try taking it to a backyard mechanic that works for a reasonable rate. You become the slave of the dealer, who rapes you for diagnostic services and software updates. This is a battle that farmers are fighting with JD even now.I feel your pain,as a retired ASE master tech I had problems getting snap on scanner to work on Volvo's even to just clear codes in the mid 2000's, they would not release the software rights to snap on. I an also Ford cerified,worked for Ford too and found out that the wiring diagrams are often made in correct so no one can repair their own vehicles. so all the after market tech info company's get the wrong info too. when stumped at Ford the techs have a special phone # to call to Detroit and a tech will walk them through the diagrams with the correct color code and pin # for the terminal. happened to me about 6 times working for Ford. another way they discourage DIYer's from repairing their own vehicles is tools, take a Cadillac with the Northstar engine, to replace water pump it takes a special tool that fits onto the pump- and you turn it a bit to the right and the pump comes off,no bolts. the tool is $165.00 and thats the only thing that tool does and the only engine it fits. for BMW,on some models if you are rebuilding the differential the bearings are not available to purchase. the dealer cannot even buy them. you have to have the dealer send the differential to Germany and they will rebuild it and send it back,the bearings are like their tires,half sizes, no one makes the sizes but Germany

for

 

[ranchito]

of you have a good scan tool and the adapter, all is good. My Autel can handle anything but it's not cheap.

My high end scan tool will pull data, but without the list and definitions of dealer specific codes it is somewhat useless.

 

[JNEUBY]

I've been turning wrenches my entire life in the auto world. Now turning wrenches on all my farm equipment. I can tear down and repair most stuff that I break on my JD equipment. Except diagnostics if I cannot access the computer systems. Then it has to go to the Dealer or they come to me. Last call was $800 to come out and make some adjustments. No parts.
Sorry, I'm trying to figure out how to keep things short and simple on my reply here.
Chrysler Corp came out with locked computer systems in their newer vehicles. You then had to register your scan tool with an outside company that would let Chrysler look at your scanner and give it permission to communicate with the vehicle components. Otherwise you cannot access live streams of data. Only legit scan tool manufacturers who bought and paid the auto manufacturers for service and repair information could be registered. Those who reverse engineered the software to gain access were denied registration and locked out. Companies like Snap-On and Bosch were ok. John Deere can do a similar type of security protocol and see exactly who is going into their systems. If they do something like this and charge a small fee for when you do need access, then I think this may be an avenue for us farmers.
I am by no means a computer wizard but I do understand some of the arguments about the reverse engineering of the software to gain wrongful access. I feel we should have access to be able to run the diagnostic tests and see what the operating parameters are for the various sensors. John Deere knows were gonna end up buying the parts from them anyway. I am a small farmer and cannot afford the $475k new combine or the $400K new spray rig like the Millennial Farmer. So I am in the same boat as most farmers out there, buy second hand and pray we didn't buy someone else's problem.
I always struggle calling the dealership and trying to talk to the service department or a tech or the parts guy to try to find out what may be causing my issues. And when you occasionally get that question Did you buy that from us?

 

[Bentrim]

Years ago I worked for a MF & MM dealer. In the mid 70's Oliver introduced the Plant Aire planter. Electric fans on each row unit and a seed monitor. That seems to have been the start of equipment "electrification". Fixing the fans was straight forward. The monitors was another issue. There was a test box that White sent to dealers that made it easy to find where the problem was. About the same year White introduced monitors in combines. Most of these were reliable until Mr. Squeaky got hungry or a thermal event occurred. A few years later MF introduced the electric controlled 3 point hitch on the larger tractors and electric header height control. Both worked very well until they didn't.
One owner stated the hitch didn't work, checked it out and by accident found a wire had corroded thru at the corner of the cab. Another time the owner brought the tractor to the shop complaining the hitch wouldn't go down. Crawled in the cab turned the key switch on -- and-- it worked! MF also put monitors on the combines and again mostly reliable unless a wire broke, was damaged, or a sensor failed.
In 89 I left the dealer by then electronics was also included in White tractors.
So with this experience and seeing what was happening in the automotive world, knew it was coming to the ag industry.
As some have stated before I see the good and the bad. But it is something that has come of age and we need to live with it or use the "antiques" of yesteryear with the good and bad they had. Personally because I can repair the older Masseys that is what I have.

 

[loggin]

It seems everything is becoming more and more complicated and more expensive to repair. We may be approaching a time when things become so complicated that they may not be fixable or too expensive to fix. Or the software is no longer supported. That's when the equipment becomes disposable. How are we going to save the environment when large machinery becomes disposable?

I believe we need to start making some parts standardized and embark on a path where things are repairable again.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[hiddentacocatneddih]

Software end of life is a real problem.

My 09 imac works fine hardware wise but it lost software support and wont allow me to download any of the modern OSX. Iirc high Sierra was as far as it would let me go and it was dogg slow and unusable

I went ubuntu to be able to continue using the computer.