Jerky LSeries 3pt Hitch Fixed

   / Jerky LSeries 3pt Hitch Fixed #141  
Maybe there is an easy fix. It might be simply education.
Other brands of tractors don't have jerky 3points. Maybe we can cure this problem ourselves.

I was reading in my Kubota WorkShopManual (Kubota calls it a WSM) last night and looked up hydraulic adjustment. Guess what? Three point hitch adjustment is not covered in the Kubota WSM. The standard Kubota Model Specific WSM doesn't cover 3 pt adjustment. It says:
"Refer to Workshop Manual for Tractor Mechanism (Code No. 9Y021-18201)"

So I got to looking around in the manual and in the preface "To The Reader" Kubota says that only the construction and function are included in the WSM. For troubleshooting, disassembling, and servicing there are yet other manuals.

So if 3 pt adjustment really is the problem to jerky 3pts, my guess is that part of the problem is the information in these additional manuals is not common info to kubota mechanics. Maybe the manuals themselves are not well known. Does anyone have one of the "9Y021-18201" manuals they could share?
I think we can fix this,
rScotty


Well my Dad would say "In for a penny in for a pound. There's no such thing as being just under the water." I just ordered the manual 9Y021-18201. If it has the answer then I collect $0.20 for each look as suggested elsewhere. If not then I took one for the team and will post the table of contents in case there is other info of value for others. Remember $0.20 a look:) :) :)
 
   / Jerky LSeries 3pt Hitch Fixed #142  
If this works out, you'll be in the TBN Hall of Fame as the most praised member of all time.

Sean
 
   / Jerky LSeries 3pt Hitch Fixed #143  
BandD,

After a few minutes looking at the exploded diagrams of your M59 hydraulic system, I'm beginning to get the picture of how the valve works. The input shaft (060) from the position control lever has a crank arrangement on that end, and so does the feedback lever shaft (140) on the other side.

They both impart a twisting motion on an intermediate shaft (050) that goes in the middle. That has a pivoting offset "finger" (020) that presses on one of the spools in the control valve. It's hard to tell which one, but I think it's (B). The other one has a nylock type nut on it, and what looks like an allen head recess for adjustment.

"H" is a straight shaft, and acts as a pivot point for the flat plate. That's the reason the hole in the plate is elongated, because it has to pivot around the shaft on "H".

As the position control valve is moved, the input side moves, rotating the intermediate shaft and pressing the finger against the valve spool to open the valve. The 3 point raises in response until the feedback shaft rotates enough to move the intermediate shaft in the opposite direction until it moves the finger enough to allow the valve spool to close again and shut off the oil flow.

The only way I could see it being rough in operation is if there's a "dead band" between the spot where the supply spool opens and the feedback side closes it again. In other words, a "lag in communication".

For example, if you've ever used a satellite phone or secure communications link, there's a time lag between the time you speak and the time the other person hears you. It makes for a jerky conversation until you get used to it. You're waiting for them to reply, so you start speaking again before they've even heard the first thing you said.

To me, I think that as soon as the three point lifts, the feedback side should be closing the supply spool again unless you continue to move the position control lever. If you do, the only limit to the speed of the raise motion is the flow rate from the hydraulic pump.

It's why the L series 3 points are smooth when raised in one motion, because the "dead band" doesn't come into play until the end of travel is reached and they stop at that point anyway.

If I had to guess, I'd say the critical adjustment is the nylock nut on the end of the valve spool (130) in your exploded diagram. As soon as the flat plate on the front of the control valve moves, that spool has to either open or close, whichever it does. If there's lost motion there before it does it's thing, the hitch will be jerky.

Now, having said that, I hope the manual you've ordered explains exactly how to set it, because if it doesn't trial and error will be the order of the day.

Woodward builds a particular hydraulic governor set up similar to this, and it's finicky to adjust. They explain really well how to go about it, but it takes some patience and experience to get the balance right the first time. If you don't, there's a time lag when it switches modes, much like this situation. I think..:laughing:

If it's as touchy as I think it is, it explains why unfinished's mechanic took so many tries to get it right, and I'll say one thing for the mechanic in jokergerm's case, he either got lucky or he understood what he was doing from the start.

It also explains why some are worse than others. If it's an adjustment, there's no "right or wrong, black or white", there's different degrees of "close". If you get it bang on, it should be silky smooth like joker's. If it's out a little tiny bit, it'll be like unfinished's (although I'd trade mine in a minute for that one), and then you have mine and k0uas and a lot of others.

Sean
 
   / Jerky LSeries 3pt Hitch Fixed #144  
31351-39604 is the valve I'm thinking :confused2::confused2::confused2: Not sure what those numbers (YR908-102??) are from.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...iss-controlvavle-20parts-20new-20sn57745-.jpg

EDIT looking at the two valves (I see where the YR # comes from) the difference is 50-130 in the link above... the right side. most of the rest look the same.

Part # 330 - Screw Set - Wonder if this is what needs to be adjusted correctly?

I think you're exactly right ! The set screw threads into the pivoting front plate and presses against the spool on that side of the control valve. The nut is there to hold the adjustment once it's made.

Sean
 
   / Jerky LSeries 3pt Hitch Fixed #145  
Looking at the L3400 parts diagram I have, it shows this:

L3400positioncontrolfeedbacklinkage01H330.jpg


010 is the intermediate shaft between the feedback and position control shafts, 240 is the "finger" or spool joint as they call it. From the look of it, the other spool joint (230) screws on the end of one spool, and there is adjustment there as well with a nut (250). I think this is to allow the position control lever to be adjusted relative to the 3 point hitch position.

This second diagram:

L3400controlvalveSNabove69854.png


shows the extended thread on the right hand spool ("B") that I believe screws into the spool joint (230 in the first schematic), the flat plate across the front of the valve (300), and the probable cause of the problem, the set screw (310) that I think controls the positional relationship between the oil supply spool and the feedback or "shut-off" spool.

As to the MX5100 not having the same issues with a rough hitch, it might be something as simple as a different assembly line in Japan. The vast majority of M59's never see the backhoe removed to use the 3PH.

Before you start digging into your tractors, this is a guess as to how this thing works. No guarantees that I'm right until the final results are in. One of the spool valves may be a servo mechanism to center the raise spool, or something else entirely.

When BandD gets his new manual, with any luck it'll have a detailed description of the process to adjust these valves, if there is one at all.

Sorry about the small size of the schematics, the originals are much easier to read.

Sean
 
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   / Jerky LSeries 3pt Hitch Fixed #146  
Since any of these adjustments require tearing into the hydraulics it would seem prudent to have as much information as possible. Given that unfinished's mechanic was skilled and had and read the manual then it maybe of limited help. Time will tell.

This certainly seems like a feedback loop problem.
 
   / Jerky LSeries 3pt Hitch Fixed #147  
Now that you mention it I believe my position control is 25 to 30% up before the 3pt moves and the it jumps.
 
   / Jerky LSeries 3pt Hitch Fixed #148  
I'm wondering if what you're seeing is play in the feedback from the arm position circuit. Once the 3pt reaches the correct height the rod (160) moves the spool drive (010) that then adjusts the spools. If there's play maybe what's happening is the feed back spool stops movement but then because of the play it allows the supply spool to start to flow again for a brief moment until the feedback spool again shuts it off. Maybe the adjustment is how much play there is at each joint.

I would guess Kubota has tolerance that it should be set to. Too loose and you'll have feed back problems, too tight and it could bind and cause increased wear. For ring and pinion gears you adjust the backlash. A few thousands off makes a big difference.
 
   / Jerky LSeries 3pt Hitch Fixed #149  
BandDcabinet, you are a scholar and a gentleman. Thanks for purchasing that service manual.

Mike
 
   / Jerky LSeries 3pt Hitch Fixed #150  
Well, I have often read these "jerky 3PH" threads, and until now, there seemed to be no hope. Mine is jerky. I have just learned to deal with it.

I don't check the Kubota section all that often but saw this thread & read through it with renewed anticipation.

At the moment I am pretty much where where LD1 is, but Unfinished's vids really did give me new hope as my 3400 is comparable to his "before", I've just learned to live with it but would love to have it smooth uh....like my 62 year old 8N. It really shouldn't be that hard.

I followed the other threads, weighed in on those & it didn't seem promising but many thanks to you guys who are tenaciously pursuing the fix.

As they say, hope springs eternal.
 

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