Just had a big hole dug in my front yard

[dcyrilc]

GRRR! Crazy, Stupid, #$%*, &^!@, old house wiring!

I started to tackle re-wiring certain circuits in the upstairs. I might as well while I have the access from underneath. The first circuit I tackle ends up like this... There are two circuits. Either circuit shows some residual current on a multimeter unless both are shut of at the breaker box. However, neither circuit will work unless both are turned on.

There's a double switch upstairs that has one switch on each circuit, but the tab between the upper and lower switches is still there. When I pulled the tab off neither circuit would work. I had to buy a new switch with an intact tab to get the power back working again. Similarly, there's an outlet downstairs with two cables coming to it. With one circuit on, the east wire is hot. With the other circuit on both wires in the west cable are hot, and I get no voltage between them. Both cables have to be connected in order for either circuit to work.

It's so crazy. I really don't expect any advice or direction here. I can't figure it out, and I spent all afternoon running every combination of tests I could think of. I'm just throwing it out so everyone can be glad they're not me.

I ran out of daylight today. My plan is to spend next Saturday taking every fixture on the whole circuit out and disconnecting all the wires. I hope by tracing the power and reconnecting each circuit one piece at a time I can narrow down where the problem is.

Take your time and be patient. I have faith that you will figure it out. House wiring is pretty simple and once you find the problem you'll laugh at yourself for not finding it faster as it usually ends up being obvious once you find it and realize what's happening. It can sure make you want to pull your hair out while you're looking though. BTDT.:laughing:

 

[crazyal]

GRRR! Crazy, Stupid, #$%*, &^!@, old house wiring!

I started to tackle re-wiring certain circuits in the upstairs. I might as well while I have the access from underneath. The first circuit I tackle ends up like this... There are two circuits. Either circuit shows some residual current on a multimeter unless both are shut of at the breaker box. However, neither circuit will work unless both are turned on.

There's a double switch upstairs that has one switch on each circuit, but the tab between the upper and lower switches is still there. When I pulled the tab off neither circuit would work. I had to buy a new switch with an intact tab to get the power back working again. Similarly, there's an outlet downstairs with two cables coming to it. With one circuit on, the east wire is hot. With the other circuit on both wires in the west cable are hot, and I get no voltage between them. Both cables have to be connected in order for either circuit to work.

It's so crazy. I really don't expect any advice or direction here. I can't figure it out, and I spent all afternoon running every combination of tests I could think of. I'm just throwing it out so everyone can be glad they're not me.

I ran out of daylight today. My plan is to spend next Saturday taking every fixture on the whole circuit out and disconnecting all the wires. I hope by tracing the power and reconnecting each circuit one piece at a time I can narrow down where the problem is.

While replacing a couple of three way switches at my father's house, late 60s, I found that they used 14/2 wire. Since there wasn't enough wires to connect the switches up correctly the builder used ground wire as the second hot wire (normally the red wire). Since the wire was ran through the walls and would require a lot of work I just replaced the switches with standard two way switch in one box and just wire nutted the other box.

I spent a lot of time trying to figure out what they were doing. It wasn't until I turned the breaker on to measure and confirm what they did. If you have a problem where you need to turn off both breakers to remove all power I would double check to make sure that both circuits are on the same leg. The last thing you want is the possibility of mixing 110 up with 220.

 

[Iplayfarmer]

The last thing you want is the possibility of mixing 110 up with 220.

Already have it. In that weird switch box I get 220 between certain of the wires. The only reason we haven't had a problem yet is that I don't have any lights or outlets where the neutral is crossed with one of the legs.

This is a high priority for me to get fixed. I just need to do it when I'm going to have a lot of time and daylight to work it out.

 

[radioman]

iplayfarmer- I had the exact same issue with my first house which is my rental now. I remember my bathroom had 240 volts running to a single box, all cloth wiring, and nothing ran off 240, but it was split to 2 120's lines and 2 breakers. If I shut one off, one side of line would be energized and other not. I got so pissed that I just simply ripped it out and ran new wires to everything in the house so each room had its own breaker and new wiring. The hardest part was adding wiring in a stucco based walls that was stucco inside and outside of walls and no basement, no attic. So- that being said, if I can do it, you can too. Its justs a matter of time. I just wish I was closer- I'd be lending a hand for you.

 

[Iplayfarmer]

iplayfarmer- I had the exact same issue with my first house which is my rental now. I remember my bathroom had 240 volts running to a single box, all cloth wiring, and nothing ran off 240, but it was split to 2 120's lines and 2 breakers. If I shut one off, one side of line would be energized and other not. I got so pissed that I just simply ripped it out and ran new wires to everything in the house so each room had its own breaker and new wiring. The hardest part was adding wiring in a stucco based walls that was stucco inside and outside of walls and no basement, no attic. So- that being said, if I can do it, you can too. Its justs a matter of time. I just wish I was closer- I'd be lending a hand for you.

I'm leaving the option open to replace everything. The outlets will be easy to replace, but the lights will be harder. I'm hoping that the circuits are such that I can use the existing wiring for the lights. The best case scenario at this point is that there's something screwed up in a box that I can get to.

 

[Treemonkey1000]

Not that I can shed much light on your problem :confused2: My Dad's mobile home had some weird lighting and receptacles going on. His neighbor was an electrician. We ended up disconnecting wires at the breaker panel then going out to the receptacles and ohming out the wires to find what went where.
We found where the two halves of the home when they join it together they use what looks like 3 pin tow trailer connectors to run power. The wire had oxidized inside the connector..Ohming out your wire runs would be a royal pain though.

 

[Iplayfarmer]

..Ohming out your wire runs would be a royal pain though.

Agreed, but I may go there. I also thought about using one of those wire tracers that phone installers use to determine which wire is which.

My plan for now is to disconnect everything then flip the breaker back on. I'll check each wire and determine what is hot. Than I'll reconnect the box with the hot wire and repeat the process until I have a complete map of the circuit.

 

[dcyrilc]

Agreed, but I may go there. I also thought about using one of those wire tracers that phone installers use to determine which wire is which.

My plan for now is to disconnect everything then flip the breaker back on. I'll check each wire and determine what is hot. Than I'll reconnect the box with the hot wire and repeat the process until I have a complete map of the circuit.

One of the worst troubleshooting I have done was on an addition on my moms house. The framer had a nail nick the hot wire and gound on one of the circuits. To make it worse, that circuit had a loose ground in the panel which did not trip the breaker. I don't remember what the problem was which made me trouble shoot the circuit, but I had a point where I split the circuit to isolate the problem and these are the results I was getting. With the circuit split, I had 120V hot to ground, 120V hot to neutral, and 0V neutral to ground (just as I should have). With the circuit put back together, I had 0V hot to ground, 120 V hot to neutral, and 120V neutral to ground. I was taking both measurements at the same box on the same wires. To all appearances, when I reconnected the wiring, the neutral and hot had switched operation as to which had power on it. I spent quite a few hours chasing my tail and scratching my head before I finally figured out what was happening.:laughing:


BTW, if you get to the point of wanting some help, I've been looking for an excuse to take a few days off work. Might be worth taking a trip to Idaho to get away. Just don't ask me to upgrade any traffic signals.:laughing:

 

[Coyote machine]

I'd go buy a circuit tracer and be done with all the other nonsense, You can plug into a receptacle, for instance, or into a bulb socket and then use the tracer to determine what breaker is controlling the outlet/receptacle/bulb socket and then disconnect the breaker to that circuit and then test for any remaining live wires. This is what an electrician would do.

 

[Iplayfarmer]

I'd go buy a circuit tracer and be done with all the other nonsense, You can plug into a receptacle, for instance, or into a bulb socket and then use the tracer to determine what breaker is controlling the outlet/receptacle/bulb socket and then disconnect the breaker to that circuit and then test for any remaining live wires. This is what an electrician would do.

So if the wires are crossed and somehow the receptacle is affected by two breakers woul it show that too?