L2800-L3400 PTO Making the right choice

[8226hamer]

Like I suspected it looks like I will have a major hassle wrt. getting the new cams done.

I wouldn't get my original dealer to even open up my tractor - they were so incompetent.

I called the new dealer I have made a service appt. at for my 50 hr. and pointed them to the PSB. They sorta weren't too excited to be looking into a warranty issue for me since I hadn't bought my tractor from them (I guess they didn't have a problem booking me in for service since I'm paying!). But I've left it with them for now. Having dealt with the kubota rep in this area, I doubt it will get done.

That said, I've been reflecting on this thread I think that the OP may just have had a lemon. This happens from time to time I imagine in all vehicles, tractors etc. Certainly not a pleasant situation if you are in it and all the worse if the dealer / manufacturer does not stand by you.

Its not clear to me that we can conclude that the over running clutch design is fundamentally flawed. I'm not yet convinced that the failures are wide spread. We have heard of one I think and I imagine a LOT of people are roto-tilling with these tractors. Being an engineer myself I just cannot imagine any reasonable manufacturer not testing a design like this for a reasonable number of hours as part of their normal testing cycle. If there were going to be consistent failures doing something as basic as rototilling after a small number of hours, this would be caught as part of the normal design / test process. It is just too expensive for companies to fix defects in the field / loose customers etc. I could be dead wrong but I'm just thinking rationally. Heck I'm a software guy and we know how much it hurts us the later we find bugs in design. We work very hard to try to find bugs in the earliest phase possible. It's a lot worse for our hardware and I imagine mechanical, industrial engineering peers I imagine.

Realistically, none of us really knows why the cams were changed so that they were not over running any more. I imagine the biggest issue has been the noise .. which is why they initially scrambled to retro-fit with the hydro fluid level kit.

One thing that I don't particularly follow (will re-read the thread to see if I can) is that this being a live PTO, the over running clutch seemed like it had a good purpose - to keep the inertia on the implement from spinning the drive train once the PTO had been disengaged. How is this solved with the new cams?

My advice to the OP would be, I would take the trade in offer on the B3030. It's not the greatest situation in the world to be in but this is a situation that does happen from time to time no matter whose product you buy. The extra $1400 over and above the price difference between the tractors does not sound overly unreasonable to me given you've had a couple hundred hours of service. Far from ideal but I know that thats what I would do.

On the balance of probabilities, given the information we have so far, my rational conclusion would be that there is not an inherent reliability issue with the PTO on these models - even on the early tractors. Maybe new data will prove me wrong.

Until then, I'll hope that I can get the cams changed under warranty - just in case I am wrong, and heck, would be nice to get the newer technology and stop that dammed noise.

That said, if after some persistence, I can't get them to do this under warranty, I'll just go on and not worry about anything until I hit some problem (hopefully before warranty runs out!) - and chalk it up to one of life's risks. I might think about upgrading to a grand L in another 4 to 5 years anyway but might as well push it out till the new 40 series are proven in the field. The risk does not justify the cost of trading up with 50 hours on the clock with the machine still under warranty at this point.

I'll also hope that by the time I am ready for an upgrade, I'll find a dealer like many of you have who will stand by you when situations like this will come up - and they do from time to time with all makes and models.

I hope that Kubota does right by you 8226hamer and that the next machine you get works out better.

The way my luck goes I very well could have just got a lemon, but I can't see Kubota going to the trouble of redesigning three different style of cams that these tractor have incorporated based on noise alone.

As far as trading for the B-3030, it will happen, but I have a years worth of warranty left on my L2800, and now that Kubotas has agreed to install the new style one way cams in my tractor, I feel obligated to try them out and then see if I was unlucky and just happened to get a lemon.

 

[ccsial]

I don't like the cable either. The PTO lever pulls on the cable to engage. My dealer said to engage the PTO and then make sure that the lever on the transmission housing has no play in it. I figure you could also loosen the cable and engage the lever by hand and then note the full enage position. Then be sure the cable engages it to that point. I plan on checking mine soon.

My dealers service manager told me they always check the cable adjustments when they work on anything with a cable. He said "We are mechanics, not part changers".

I wonder if that shoulder was on a part that was machined out of spec. I hope so. I am involved with machine tools and manufactures every day and I see a lot of stuff like that and some of it never gets caught.

 

[8226hamer]

I don't like the cable either. The PTO lever pulls on the cable to engage. My dealer said to engage the PTO and then make sure that the lever on the transmission housing has no play in it. I figure you could also loosen the cable and engage the lever by hand and then note the full enage position. Then be sure the cable engages it to that point. I plan on checking mine soon.

My dealers service manager told me they always check the cable adjustments when they work on anything with a cable. He said "We are mechanics, not part changers".

I wonder if that shoulder was on a part that was machined out of spec. I hope so. I am involved with machine tools and manufactures every day and I see a lot of stuff like that and some of it never gets caught.

I'm going to check my cable and see if if there is any play on the lever on the transmission as soon as I get done with this responce. I will let you know what I find on my tractor

When I do get the new style cams installed, I am going to see how the second set of cams look that they take out of the tractor. I bet both of the ramps slope down and are flush as I think they should be. When I talked to the service manager at my dealer over the phone, I tried to explain how the old cams were, and that this could have been the reason that they failed, but I don't think he even knew what I was talking about. I'm going to show him the picture and then maybe he will understand what my thinking , as what may have caused the old cams to fail.

This may be a long shot, but I wonder if that when my PTO failed the first time, if when they repaired it, that they may have left one of the original cams in and just replaced one of the cams with a new cam and that they are not matching cams and didn't see that the sloping ramps didn't match. I would hope to think that the mechanic didn't do this , but they did have my tractor the first time the PTO went out for 5 weeks, and the reason being, what I was told, was because they were waiting on parts.

 

[Goog]

Hamer. Did you get your new cams installed yet? Brian

 

[canoetrpr]

As I expected, they are just not willing to get the new CAMs installed on my L3400 under warranty.

They won't budge. The dealer is going by what the Kubota rep says. They are treating this as a change in production and see no need for an upgrade to tractors in the field. I've raised the fact that others have had their CAMs changed under warranty - makes no difference.

I don't think I am willing to pull what little hair I have out over this. If I do trade up at some point in the future, I'm not going to think twice about getting one from the U.S.A. as many others have done. I might have spent thousands more despite the exchange rate for excellent support of a local dealer if this would have been handled for me.

For now, this tractor is been awesome and more than enough for my needs. At 50 hours per year of use its not going to depreciate much more than at already has and if I do move to a grand L, I might as well wait for a few years and let the 40 series mature given I will have no warranty on a tractor from the USA.

I think I might add an external over-running clutch as cheap insurance. Any one know what a good place is to buy one?

 

[Marcussen]

As I expected, they are just not willing to get the new CAMs installed on my L3400 under warranty.

They won't budge. The dealer is going by what the Kubota rep says. They are treating this as a change in production and see no need for an upgrade to tractors in the field. I've raised the fact that others have had their CAMs changed under warranty - makes no difference.

I don't think I am willing to pull what little hair I have out over this. If I do trade up at some point in the future, I'm not going to think twice about getting one from the U.S.A. as many others have done. I might have spent thousands more despite the exchange rate for excellent support of a local dealer if this would have been handled for me.

For now, this tractor is been awesome and more than enough for my needs. At 50 hours per year of use its not going to depreciate much more than at already has and if I do move to a grand L, I might as well wait for a few years and let the 40 series mature given I will have no warranty on a tractor from the USA.

I think I might add an external over-running clutch as cheap insurance. Any one know what a good place is to buy one?

There are not any tractor in this size range made in the USA, I looked before I purchased mine your; choices are China, Japan, Korea, or India. You can of course choose a different color green, blue, orange etc, but none of them are made in the USA.

I bought my over running clutch for my 8N at Atwoods, I would Imagine tractor supply would sell them too.

 

[canoetrpr]

There are not any tractor in this size range made in the USA, I looked before I purchased mine your; choices are China, Japan, Korea, or India. You can of course choose a different color green, blue, orange etc, but none of them are made in the USA.

Marcussen - I mean that I will not think twice about purchasing my next (Kubota) from a dealer in the U.S.A vs. a local dealer here in Canada. With the exchange rate the way it is, us Canadians are just giving money away to the dealers here for the same product that I can get from a dealer 3 or 4 ours south of the border.

If they aren't going to go out of their way to give us support here on warranty issues etc.... there is absolutely no use paying thousands more.

 

[8226hamer]

As I expected, they are just not willing to get the new CAMs installed on my L3400 under warranty.

They won't budge. The dealer is going by what the Kubota rep says. They are treating this as a change in production and see no need for an upgrade to tractors in the field. I've raised the fact that others have had their CAMs changed under warranty - makes no difference.

I don't think I am willing to pull what little hair I have out over this. If I do trade up at some point in the future, I'm not going to think twice about getting one from the U.S.A. as many others have done. I might have spent thousands more despite the exchange rate for excellent support of a local dealer if this would have been handled for me.

For now, this tractor is been awesome and more than enough for my needs. At 50 hours per year of use its not going to depreciate much more than at already has and if I do move to a grand L, I might as well wait for a few years and let the 40 series mature given I will have no warranty on a tractor from the USA.

I think I might add an external over-running clutch as cheap insurance. Any one know what a good place is to buy one?


[/QUOTE
Call the corporate office in California. I don't which post it was, but I posted that phone number. Ask for customer service and explaine what is going on and ask why your devision rep will not do this and others will. Tell them you have seen the service bulletin that Kubota put out on this problem, and it clearly states that when a customer complains about the cam noise the dealer is to order and install the new style cams. Tell them you are not happy with your tractor and the way that your local division feild rep is handling it. It sounds like you need to talk to someone higher the ladder than you have been talking to. It made a huge difference for me and my situation by doing this. If you really want and feel these new style cams will benefit you, keep on them and call Kubota every day, they should do this for you. I don't see how they will do this for some and not other L2800-3400 series tractors owners that are not happy. GOOD LUCK!!

 

[Marcussen]

Marcussen - I mean that I will not think twice about purchasing my next (Kubota) from a dealer in the U.S.A vs. a local dealer here in Canada. With the exchange rate the way it is, us Canadians are just giving money away to the dealers here for the same product that I can get from a dealer 3 or 4 ours south of the border.

If they aren't going to go out of their way to give us support here on warranty issues etc.... there is absolutely no use paying thousands more.

Sorry I misunderstood, when I was looking I found a package deal on the internet but the dealer was a 5-6 hours drive away, when I called him he told me to go to my local dealer because he would not sell it to me, to far out of his area.

 

[gilliganfarmer]

I was all set to buy a L3400HST and now i think I have to start all over again.
I have focused my search on Kubotas because of their reputation. I am looking for a machine that will be on my farm for 20 or more years.

Rototilling and brush cutting are two things that will be done alot. Subsoiling, Chisel plowing and bedding/shaping beds. The soil work will be done on five acres of heavy soil. The Brush cutting will be done on about 30acres.

Most important consideration is this. The closest dealer is in Puerto Rico and his prices are huge. So I am looking at stateside dealers which means I will be very far from my dealer and I need something very reliable since I can't bring my machine to them.


Any suggestions would be appreciated

 

[RayMunising]

If you're concerned about the PTO on the L3400 the L4400HST (new for 2008) has a independent hydraulic PTO as does the GL tractors.

The GL3240 isn't much more expensive than the L3400.

 

[tiredkubotadude]

Well I got my l3400 hst in fall 2006. pto cable failed after 1.5 hours of tilling. Today the cams must have failed as i can stop pto shaft with my hand. This is outrageous that Kubota will not make good on these issues. i have 134 hours on my tractor and only 5 hours on pto.
I have been ripped off.
I will never buy another Kubota.
I will ba dmouth them every chance I get.
I will do everything in my power To talk people out of buying a Kubots.
I will back up my badmouthing with links to this and other threads on the internet with this issue .

very very upset mad disgusted

 

[Harvest Moon]

Hey tiredkubotadude, I almost know how you feel.

Read your other post too, it doesn't sound like you are positive yet that your cams are wrecked. I hope you're wrong.

One thing that seems to happen over and over again with this system is the cables and levers corrode stuck or stiff and the cable often stretches and needs to be tightened.

When my PTO is disengaged, it spins freely by hand. When I had my bracket replaced my only active problem was the lever on the transmission was very stiff. If I recall, it's de-activated by a spring and the spring wasn't strong enough to return it to the disengaged position. I had to craw under the tractor and manually disengage just to get the PTO to stop turning.

If you have any doubts, take a closer look and make sure all the external components are moving smoothly, especially if your machine has seen some weather... like, plowing snow. Make sure the PTO lever is doing something on the other end, preferably moving the lever on the transmission through it's full range of motion. There is a fair chance that your PTO linkage is not working properly on the outside of the machine. I think if your cams failed it would have happened while in use and you'd know it.

I've spent quite a bit of time browsing this topic and to date I still only recall one confirmed, documented cam failure, well I guess there were two? but it was on the same machine. There may be more, but not too many. There are THOUSANDS of these machines out there.

Good luck. Keep us posted!

 

[Altex]

...the cams must have failed as i can stop pto shaft with my hand...

Not sure what you mean by this. Like Harvest Moon said, when it's disengaged you should be able to turn it and stop it with your hand. How else would you line up the splines with the PTO Driveline for the implement?

But, if it is the cams and not just a cable problem, 8226hamer stated a couple times earlier in this thread (a lot to read) that the cams falls under the Powertrain Warranty which is 3 years. If you got your tractor in the Fall of '06, Kubota should replace the cams under this warranty, if the cams did actually fail.

Check with your dealer and keep us posted.

 

[wushaw]

Tiredkubotadude you need to sell your L3400 and buy some other brand.

 

[cville97]

Just found this thread. I got an L3400HST (used S/N 56897) a few years ago and just put a tiller on it for the first time last weekend. After about 5 mintes of use I heard the grinding noise and the tiller stopped. I tried adjusting the PTO cable and it got a little better, in that it could run the tiller when it was only a few inches deep, but when I dropped it deeper into the ground the grinding was back.

I continued to adjust the cable, and eventually it broke. I just replaced the cable and now I get the same grinding noise even when I try to run the bush hog. The PTO can't seem to handle any load at this point.

I'm heading to the dealer today to see what they can do. My hope is that the new style clutch cam (P/N TC220-99990) will do the trick.

It doesn't look like the new design provides the overrunning clutch feature. If I switch to this new cam, will I need to get an external overrunning clutch? I suspect I would not need one because of the HST, but perhaps there is something I'm missing.

Anyway, I just wanted to provide another data point, and see if there was any update on this problem.

Thank you!

 

[Chilly807]

I believe the HST is the only model of this tractor that has the over-running clutch, the DT model (gear drive) definitely doesn't. My understanding is that it's there to prevent damage to the HST transmission.

Sean

 

[ccsial]

I believe the HST is the only model of this tractor that has the over-running clutch, the DT model (gear drive) definitely doesn't. My understanding is that it's there to prevent damage to the HST transmission.

Sean

I would doubt that only because Kubota is replacing the cams with non-over riding cams. I would not add an external one. I would however, be sure that the tiller has a operating slip clutch. Tillers can be very hard on PTO's.

I should mention that I have almost 400 hours on my L3400 now. Almost all using the PTO for mowing and a little snow blowing with no problems so far. Tilling goes to my 1910.

Cville, Please let us know what the dealer finds and does to correct it. Thanks.

 

[k0ua]

I believe the HST is the only model of this tractor that has the over-running clutch, the DT model (gear drive) definitely doesn't. My understanding is that it's there to prevent damage to the HST transmission.

Sean

Sean, let me ask you this, when you are operating a rotary cutter with a lot of rotating mass, and you push in the clutch, doesn't the stump jumper and blades keep on spinning and it makes a clicking sound in the PTO area as the blades spin down?. But this energy stored in the rotating parts does NOT push the tractor forward in any way, right?.. This is the way my B7500DT worked as soon as you pushed in the clutch you heard a rapid ratcheting sound that got slower and slower as the parts spun down. I believed this to be a one-way overrunning clutch, able to be driven from the tractor end but would ratchet when the stored energy would attempt to keep the PTO sped up. So isn't this an internal overrunning clutch?

James K0UA

 

[Chilly807]

Mine has no over-running clutch at all. It has a 2-stage clutch however. The way it works is, the first half of the pedal travel coming off the floorboards engages the PTO clutch and spins up whatever implement you have attached. The second half of the travel is dedicated to engaging the drive wheels. Using a rotary cutter as an example, all your maneuvering can be achieved by depressing the clutch halfway and never disengaging the PTO clutch at all.

This is the way I operate now, for the first little while I wasn't used to using the 2-stage clutch and wasn't confident I was using it correctly. What I didn't like about using the rotary cutter without using the 2-stage clutch was that you were always engaging and disengaging the PTO clutch and slipping it quite a lot due to the high inertia load. Since the engine went back to idle every time you made a 2 point turn, re-engaging the PTO clutch on a quickly spinning cutter would wear the clutch disc more than I wanted. I'm all about taking it easy on things like clutches.

Now when I have to stop and turn, I use only the first half of the clutch pedal to make the turn, leaving the cutter spinning and engaged while the tractor ground speed may be nil. The engine acts as a very effective brake to bring the cutter speed down. If I plan to stop for a while and disengage the PTO, the cutter is turning at idle speed within about 3 seconds of releasing the throttle. The L3400 has enough torque to spin the cutter back up to full 540 PTO speed from idle within about 2-3 seconds as you finish your turn.

There is never any ratcheting sound at all.

There's a definite "step" in the clutch effort you can feel as you're about to disengage the PTO clutch. Very easy to drive once you get a feel for it.

Sean