Let's talk third function on the cheap...

[davedj1]

My last Kubota L2850 had a third function but it was an actual valve mounted on the fender, it looked to be a factory deal as it had orange mount and all.
I really want a third function on my new Kubota L2501 but don't want to spend all that money for the electric solenoid kit. I can buy a valve that will work for $69 and a couple of hoses and be into it for around a $100 bucks.
I understand having a valve on the fender will be a bit less handy than the electronic valve but I managed with the last tractor. On the last tractor I had a thumb on the bucket and it worked fine.
What say yee?

 

[/pine]

As long as the new valve has a PB port as most loader valves do...it is usually much less expensive than a diverter etc...


Can someone explain why folks often call a set of remote hydraulics a "third function" when there is no first or second function being overridden ?
Obviously when the curl/dump functions are overridden via an electric diverter whatever the diverter is connected to becomes the "third" function as the curl/dump are the first and second functions...
...just curious...

 

[ericm979]

I take third function to be third circuit on the loader. A diverter isn't really a third function by that definition.

Dave you need either a valve that has power beyond or a valve whose tank port can handle full system pressure. Many can't but there are some that can. I have a dealer installed valve on the fender which is one of those. I'm currently using it for the grapple. I changed the handle to point forwards which puts it close to the loader joystick.

You will want a set of disconnects in the hoses so you can take the loader off, and a set of quick couplers on a bracket for the grapple to connect to. Surplus center and discount hydraulic hose will have the parts for less than the local hydraulic shop. I suggest using JIC couplers. NPT is fine for 60psi home water systems but has a hard time with 2200 psi hydraulics. I use NPT to JIC adaptors and then use standard JIC ended hoses.

The manual valve does not cost that much less than a home brew third function. A solenoid valve costs about $115-125 and the D03 base plate is another $35 or so. You'll also need a switch, but there are inexpensive ways to do that, like using an ATV winch switch. The hoses and fittings cost will be pretty much the same between the two.

 

[ovrszd]

Good stuff Eric!!!

 

[davedj1]

Thank you guys for taking the time to help.
I'm not sure the valve needs power beyond as it will be after the loader valve. Unless the three point comes after?
I don't know what you mean by the full system pressure back to tank? I thought that was relatively low pressure?
Can you point me to the electronic solenoid valve at those prices? Cheapest I have found is 150 at sc and 40 for the sub plate.
I hadn't thought about the ATV switch, that actually would be about the easiest and most economical way to go and convenient.
I think you make a great case for not doing the manual valve Ericm979, can you link me to the specs on which solenoid valve to use? thank you
I'll probably just order the solenoid switch and sub plate.

 

[ovrszd]

I used this solenoid valve on a blade project. No sub plate required.

13 GPM 12/24 Volt DC SAE 8 Solenoid Operated Double Selector Valve | Selector Valves | Hydraulic Valves | Hydraulics | www.surpluscenter.com

 

[ericm979]

Northern has the valves for $120. Make sure you get the right spool style, I think there might be an error in the catalog so call and ask. I don't know if there's a difference in quality between these and the $150 ones.

The 3pt is always the last valve in the chain. The valves are chained together serially, i.e. Pump -> loader -> 3rd function -> remotes -> 3pt -> tank. The flow goes through each valve and on to the next. Some valves have PB, others do not. If you raise something heavy on the 3pt that requires all it's strength, the pump will be pumping at full pressure through all the valves. So each valve's output to the next valve in the chain has to be able to handle 2200 psi or whatever is it that your tractor puts out (usually determined by the relief on the loader valve though there may be other reliefs in the system). If that output is through a PB port, you're good, it's designed for that. If there is no PB port then the output is through the tank port (really it's a combined PB/tank port). So you need that port to be able to handle full pressure. The pressure it can handle should be listed in the data sheet for the valve. The solenoid valves don't come with PB, they all have just an in and out (tank) and work ports.

There's a relatively inexpensive loader joystick handle from Deere that has switches in it which many people have been happy with. There's some threads about home brew 3rd function where they've been used.

 

[davedj1]

Thanks for the input eric.
Does this valve look like it will be OK?
D3 hydraulic directional control solenoid valve Tandem center 12VDC | eBay

 

[daveknowshow]

this is what I did for mine
installing a third function on a budget - YouTube

 

[JDAOWNER]

I'VE PULLED A FEW WRENCHES IN MY TIME, BUT NOT MUCH ON HYDRAULICS. I'M RETIRED AN D HAVE ALL DAY TO GET THINGS DONE --OR NOT. SO WHY CAN'T I JUST RUN A LONG LINE FROM MY GRAPPLE---WHICH I DON'T HAVE YET--TO A REAR REMOTE AND USE THT VALVE. I ALSO DON'T HAVE REAR REMOTES YET. THAT WILL BE MY PROJECT NEXT WINTER. MY 1946 JD CAME WITH REAR REMOTE, MY KIOTI DIDN'T.

 

[oldnslo]

JDA,
Yes you can use your rear remotes to operate the grapple.


3rd function:
If you use a manually operated valve you can feather the operation of that function. If you use a solenoid operated valve they are full open or full closed no feathering of speed. If speed or control of the third function is important then you should use a manual lever operated valve. If just going full stroke on a function then electric work just fine.

 

[davedj1]

I'VE PULLED A FEW WRENCHES IN MY TIME, BUT NOT MUCH ON HYDRAULICS. I'M RETIRED AN D HAVE ALL DAY TO GET THINGS DONE --OR NOT. SO WHY CAN'T I JUST RUN A LONG LINE FROM MY GRAPPLE---WHICH I DON'T HAVE YET--TO A REAR REMOTE AND USE THT VALVE. I ALSO DON'T HAVE REAR REMOTES YET. THAT WILL BE MY PROJECT NEXT WINTER. MY 1946 JD CAME WITH REAR REMOTE, MY KIOTI DIDN'T.

On my last Kubota it had a rear remote, I installed Tee's with a rear facing set of quick connects and then hoses ran down under the foot pan then along the loader to another set of quick connects for the thumb so I could run the rear hydraulic top link or the front thumb, it worked pretty good. I believe the hoses going to the front were 14' long!

 

[ericm979]

Thanks for the input eric.
Does this valve look like it will be OK?
D3 hydraulic directional control solenoid valve Tandem center 12VDC | eBay

Tandem valve is what you want. In the neutral position the work ports should be blocked and the P port lead to T.

You need to make sure the T port on that is rated for your system pressure. Nothing comes up in a search on the mfg part number. The seller has only an 80% rating.

I understand wanting to save $$ but if it was me I'd spend more for one with a manufacturer name and a data sheet, from a reputable seller.

 

[JDAOWNER]

THANKS OLDNSLO & DAVE--- THATS WHAT I WANT TO DO. I TRIED TO ORDER A REAR REMOTE KIT FROM KIOTI, BUT THEY DON'T MAKE THEM ANYMORE FOR MY UNIT. I GUESS I'LL HAVE TO WORK WITH A HYD. SUPPLIER OR A DEALER TO GET THE PARTS I NEED. I THINK I WANT TWO REMOTES WITH FLOAT ON BOTH. WHEN I LOOK AT VALVES IN CATALOGS--NT--THEY DON'T SAY ANYTHING ABOUT THE VALVE FUNCTION. ANY SUGGESTIONS?

 

[ericm979]

JDA,

3rd function:
If you use a manually operated valve you can feather the operation of that function. If you use a solenoid operated valve they are full open or full closed no feathering of speed. If speed or control of the third function is important then you should use a manual lever operated valve. If just going full stroke on a function then electric work just fine.

That's a good point. With my dual lid grapple the lids move slow enough that I never feather the manual valve. I hold it down until I see the appropriate amount of crushing or the lids stop moving. A single lid would move twice as fast (assuming the same cylinder size).

 

[ovrszd]

I may simply be confused so feel free to correct me if so.

If you use an electronic activated diverter valve you will continue to use your curl function valve on the FEL. Push the button and the curl function is diverted to the 3rd function couplers. Release the button and the curl function goes back to normal operation.

Downside, can't use curl and 3rd function at the same time. But many members here have that system and learn quickly to push/release, push/release the button to get the functions they want.

Upside, no need to buy a more expensive valve and/or worry about PB, etc. I've even saw them with a foot operated button on the floorboard of the tractor if you have no other use for your left foot. I prefer a joystick handle with a button for 3rd function.

New Holland even puts their diverter on the front crossbar of the FEL frame. Shorter hoses are used. Electrical plug-in is located by the hydraulic couplers. Electrical cable runs forward to diverter. Very simple system. Probably as cheap as you can build.

I would never shop for the cheapest valve.

 

[BukitCase]

Richard, if you're confused then so am I - (as in, I agree with all you wrote) - when I get back to finishing my hydraulic mods and QA loader mods, this is what'll be mounted ala your New Holland comment


Neither of my non-backhoe tractors have FEL's, right now the Long has just a single remote (toplink at the moment) and the Allis has a mechanical diverter for its single remote, currently used as TnT. Soon as I get the ripper cylinder rebuilt on the Gannon box I'm gonna want a "3rd function" :laughing: so I'll replace the mechanical diverter with a PAIR of these

6.6 GPM 12 Volt DC Double Selector Valve DFE | Selector Valves | Hydraulic Valves | Hydraulics | www.surpluscenter.com

Still to be ordered - there's nothing on that rig that needs speed (those valves are SAE 4), plus it's hard to beat the price - they're stackable, so I'll fab up a plate similar to the other pics. The ones in the pics (for the 580B) will be controlled with a Scorpion handle; 1 trigger switch and 2 push buttons, it'll replace the knob on the loader joystick. Haven't got around to a scheme for control of the new diverters yet.

I had bought a 4-valve stack for the Allis (used for Gannon, 6' tiller, etc) but decided to steal that for the 580B (got a few small cylinders and plans for articulated brush cutter, + a thumb)

Warning for those new to hydraulics - do NOT think those cheaper diverters are a cheaper option if you do NOT wanna limit something ELSE's flow; the function you "borrow" has to go THROUGH the diverter to do its original "thang", so you do NOT want a lower flow diverter than the other valves on your tractor... Steve

 

[LouNY]

This is what I used on a rear blade to operate a second cylinder with a single remote valve;
SELECTOR VALVE SOLENOID OPERATED 12 VOLT DC 13.2 GPM SAE 8, DSV-62-8-12

 

[ovrszd]

This is what I used on a rear blade to operate a second cylinder with a single remote valve;
SELECTOR VALVE SOLENOID OPERATED 12 VOLT DC 13.2 GPM SAE 8, DSV-62-8-12

Yep. That's the one I used for the very same purpose. :thumbsup:

 

[ericm979]

The solenoid diverter valves usually cost a little more than the 3rd function valves, though if you get a subplate 3rd function it'll be a wash. Depending on where you put the diverter the hoses can be shorter, which lowers the cost a little. But between the valve, switch and wiring, hoses and fittings, the costs are roughly the same.

The major difference is how the two are operated. With the diverter you have to hold the button and move the joystick sideways. With the 3rd function you hold the up or down button to open/close the grapple. People may find one or the other more ergonomic or logical.

Depending on your loader valve you may be able to open/close the grapple while curling the loader with a 3rd function. My Branson's loader valve sends everything out the tank port when it's being operated so it's not going to happen for me. Also depending on the valve you may be able to open/close while moving the loader up or down with the diverter. Many loader valves do that, but not all of them.

Another consideration is that many loader valves have regen on the dump circuit, and supposedly that does not play well with a diverter though I don't know the details.