Leveling a site for a pole barn that had trees

[LT1Pat]

I'm starting to level a site next to my house for a 40x80 pole barn that has some smaller trees and one large (~32" diameter elm tree). I plan to have a concrete slab poured that's 6" thick. I've excavated a circle around the smaller trees to the point where the tree falls over with the stump attached when I push it with the tractor. I plan on putting at least 12" of crushed concrete over the entire 40x80 area because it needs to be raised some.

Question 1: There is likely smaller roots that extend a decent distance from the tree. How critical is it to get these smaller roots that might exist that are 5 feet or more from the root ball?

Question 2: I have a rollover box blade that can dig in the ground and grab roots that might be 6" or so below the surface. Would it be better to leave the ground undisturbed or tear it up and attempt to get any tree roots that it catches?

 

[Stimw]

It would help if you posted your location, also what kind of trees?
I put up a 40' X 60' Red Iron Building a year ago on undisturbed ground.
The concrete guys spent about 4 hours with a Plate Compactor and wetting to keep the dust down.
Plans called for ground to be compacted.
The ground should be compacted then the fill should be compacted.
Roots? need to know what kind of trees.

 

[LT1Pat]

I'm in SE Michigan.

The site has 3 trees that are significant. The biggest being a 32" American Elm and then a 16" Willow tree and a 12" maple tree.

It would help if you posted your location, also what kind of trees?
I put up a 40' X 60' Red Iron Building a year ago on undisturbed ground.
The concrete guys spent about 4 hours with a Plate Compactor and wetting to keep the dust down.
Plans called for ground to be compacted.
The ground should be compacted then the fill should be compacted.
Roots? need to know what kind of trees.

 

[bigtiller]

When the pad for my 54x75 tin shed was made, 12" of top soil was removed and 3 trees and stumps about the same size as yours was pushed off to the side with a big bulldozer. That took care of all the roots that were big enough to worry about. Then the pad was built up in layers of clay and compacted with a vibrating sheepsfoot compactor with 5' tall wheels. A bit of 3/8 rock and 6" of concrete covered it all up. I don't think I need to worry about any settling.

 

[EddieWalker]

Don't worry about the roots. They will remain just like they are for decades. Without air and water, they will never rot.

Virgin soil will always have the highest level of compaction. When I worked construction in CA, we would have to get the soil back to 97 percent compaction. This was very hard to do, and we where using heavy equipment. The inspector would test it with a device that is kind of like radar by sending a signal into the ground and measuring it's echo. Most of the time we passed, but when we didn't, we would have to dig it all out, add a bunch of water to the pile, mix the pile over and over again with more and more water until the operator felt it was ready to try again.

You will never be able to get to 90 percent compaction without the proper tools, and even then, it's not easy. Do not dig up anything more then you have to, and be sure there is a enough moisture in your soil when you put it back in and compact it that it sticks together.

 

[RNeumann]

When the pad for my 54x75 tin shed was made, 12" of top soil was removed and 3 trees and stumps about the same size as yours was pushed off to the side with a big bulldozer. That took care of all the roots that were big enough to worry about. Then the pad was built up in layers of clay and compacted with a vibrating sheepsfoot compactor with 5' tall wheels. A bit of 3/8 rock and 6" of concrete covered it all up. I don't think I need to worry about any settling.

This is the standard construction practice. Organic material will settle or move differently than the native soil.

The pole barn shouldn't be affected as the design should have the poles set below the high organics soil. Your slab will be more prone to movement etc if you place your flatwork on top of high organic soil. I'd take the top soil off prior to placing imported material.

 

[LT1Pat]

Here's my plan:

1.) remove the top 6" of soil or until all organic matter near the surface is gone
2.) Build the barn
3.) Bring in 200 tons of crushed concrete to build/compact the gravel in 3" lifts
4.) Wait 3-4 months
5.) Fill with concrete

I'm hoping that winter and 3-4 months will bring that last bit of compaction.

Does this sound like a

 

[Firemanbuck82]

Spend less time worrying about the roots and more time filling the stump holes with structural fill and compacting to a "firm and unyielding condition". Poorly compacted fill will result in structural failure of the slab over time more than a few 2" diameter roots will. The slab and underlying gravel base will bridge over the occasional decaying root.

If you're worried about it, or if you have problem soils like swelling clays, get a qualified geotechnical engineer or engineering geologist out there to have a look and give you specifications on compaction criteria, sub-slab gravel layer, reinforcement within the slab, etc.

 

[EddieWalker]

Here's my plan:

1.) remove the top 6" of soil or until all organic matter near the surface is gone
2.) Build the barn
3.) Bring in 200 tons of crushed concrete to build/compact the gravel in 3" lifts
4.) Wait 3-4 months
5.) Fill with concrete

I'm hoping that winter and 3-4 months will bring that last bit of compaction.

Does this sound like a

Do you have topsoil? Did you post your location? Here in my world, we do not have top soil. It's red clay from top to bottom. I've seen posts from others on here who do not have top soil, but for some reason, they went to a lot of trouble and expense removing 4 to 6 inches of dirt for no apparent reason. I've been to places in the Pacific North West where the top soil is several feet deep. I lived in CA where we had several inches, but just a few miles away, there was none.

Why build the barn first? If you are bringing in crushed concrete and building it up, you will have a lot better results doing that without a building in your way. It is also a lot easier to build the building with a solid pad under you while working.

If you are going to pour concrete, why not do that first and then build your barn on top of the concrete slab?

 

[s219]

I asked around here for recommendations/experience when preparing my pole barn site and the consensus was to avoid making big holes when removing stumps and roots, because they are almost impossible to fill back up to a reliable level of compaction. People would rather grind stumps than dig them out. If you will be covering everything with compactable fill gravel for the base, it will help even out support for the slab regardless of what's underneath, but it can't make up for big soft pits left by stump holes.

So, I stripped all top soil down to clay (about 6"), flush cut and/or ground all stumps, then covered with compactable fill dirt (clay/sand mix) in 2" layers, followed by #78 gravel.

 

[Firemanbuck82]

"I'm hoping that the last 3-4 months will bring that last bit of compaction"

It won't. Compaction comes with effort and that's in the form of vibration and weight. Just sitting won't do anything for the compaction on your fill.

Also, don't just grind the stumps then build; remove them. The stumps will decay over time and create voids below the slab resulting in weak spots.

Again, don't rely on internet wisdom and lore, get a professional soils engineer out to give you recommendations before you build. You'll be happier in the long run.

 

[2458n]

Agree with the weight and vibration. Needed new warehouse at work. Old engineer moved the semi driveway several times over the next year. Poured floor crack free five years later.

 

[Egon]

Remove the stumps & roots and organic topsoil. Level and pack. ( depending on the soil type there are different packers that can be used) use what you can get. Haul in clay or non organic soil to raise pad level to just above surrounding soil and compact. Then add and compact the granular base. A couple of six inch lifts would be fine. This should end up as a dry base.

Compaction is always a pain. Do the best you can. Tire packing is not really adaquate.

 

[mx842]

I think you are on the right track but I would build your pad up then build the barn. If you use stone that has dust or small screenings in it for the top layer by the time you get the roof on your base will be pretty well compacted. One thing.....you mentioned there were several trees on the site. This is not a real problem because all dirt will have some kind of root or organic matter in it. However the trees you said were in the pad area are all trees that are common to find in wet or poorly drained soil. if this in the case you need to be especially careful when you get the root balls out of the ground. Don't let the loose dirt and topsoil to fill the hole as you are trying to get the stump out. Those spots will never compact and will become a problem down the road. You would be wise to clean out these spots and back fill with good clay or better fill them up with stone.

If in deed this site is low or stays damp then get that top 6" layer off like you planned on then cover it with your first layer of stone but use clean stone that's in the two or three inch range. Then cover that with a layer of stone with dust in it. As long as you get these to layers higher than the area around it you can hold off with the last layer until you get the roof on and are ready to pour the floor. You will need some fresh loose stuff to get you up to your sub grade because the stuff you put down earlier will be so hard you you won't be able to stick a pick in it. Just bring the first two layers up to within two or three inches from sub grade and that will be easy to compact once you are ready to pour your floor. This will also allow you to put down conduit or other piping that will be below the slab without having to disturb to much of your base material before you pour.

 

[LT1Pat]

My only hesitation with building the pad up first was the ability to auger through the stone. I have a vibratory compactor so I was going to compact any fill material that goes into the tree stump holes in small lifts. It doesn't seem like I have much if any topsoil in SE Michigan. It looks slightly sandy with some clay. The elevation of the pad is a good 10' above the water table. I wouldn't consider it a wet area but if you go down in elevation near the water table you will find wetlands.

I think you are on the right track but I would build your pad up then build the barn. If you use stone that has dust or small screenings in it for the top layer by the time you get the roof on your base will be pretty well compacted. One thing.....you mentioned there were several trees on the site. This is not a real problem because all dirt will have some kind of root or organic matter in it. However the trees you said were in the pad area are all trees that are common to find in wet or poorly drained soil. if this in the case you need to be especially careful when you get the root balls out of the ground. Don't let the loose dirt and topsoil to fill the hole as you are trying to get the stump out. Those spots will never compact and will become a problem down the road. You would be wise to clean out these spots and back fill with good clay or better fill them up with stone.

If in deed this site is low or stays damp then get that top 6" layer off like you planned on then cover it with your first layer of stone but use clean stone that's in the two or three inch range. Then cover that with a layer of stone with dust in it. As long as you get these to layers higher than the area around it you can hold off with the last layer until you get the roof on and are ready to pour the floor. You will need some fresh loose stuff to get you up to your sub grade because the stuff you put down earlier will be so hard you you won't be able to stick a pick in it. Just bring the first two layers up to within two or three inches from sub grade and that will be easy to compact once you are ready to pour your floor. This will also allow you to put down conduit or other piping that will be below the slab without having to disturb to much of your base material before you pour.

 

[mx842]

My only hesitation with building the pad up first was the ability to auger through the stone. I have a vibratory compactor so I was going to compact any fill material that goes into the tree stump holes in small lifts. It doesn't seem like I have much if any topsoil in SE Michigan. It looks slightly sandy with some clay. The elevation of the pad is a good 10' above the water table. I wouldn't consider it a wet area but if you go down in elevation near the water table you will find wetlands.

You shouldn't have any trouble with a motorized auger the stone won't be that deep to worry about. I don't know what type of weather you guys get up there but in 3 or 4 months it's going to be winter and probably wet or frozen. Frozen ground will be harder to dig in than a few inches of stone. If it was me I would want to get my post in while the ground was in good shape and for sure before it got to the frozen stage.

It sounds like you have pretty good dirt to work with. When I mentioned the possibility of low or poorly drained land I was just going by what type trees you had on the site. Both Willow and maple love ground that holds a lot of water but I guess they can survive in drier conditions. Good luck with your build and of-course we like pics......without pics it didn't happen.:drink:

 

[LT1Pat]

My little Kubota L35 seems to have met its match but I'm hopeful I can get this stump out with the root ball. I know that if I left those roots in the ground it would decay and the floor would sink. I plan to fill everything back in with compacted crushed concrete and get everything organic out of there.

You shouldn't have any trouble with a motorized auger the stone won't be that deep to worry about. I don't know what type of weather you guys get up there but in 3 or 4 months it's going to be winter and probably wet or frozen. Frozen ground will be harder to dig in than a few inches of stone. If it was me I would want to get my post in while the ground was in good shape and for sure before it got to the frozen stage.

It sounds like you have pretty good dirt to work with. When I mentioned the possibility of low or poorly drained land I was just going by what type trees you had on the site. Both Willow and maple love ground that holds a lot of water but I guess they can survive in drier conditions. Good luck with your build and of-course we like pics......without pics it didn't happen.:drink:

 

[mx842]

My little Kubota L35 seems to have met its match but I'm hopeful I can get this stump out with the root ball. I know that if I left those roots in the ground it would decay and the floor would sink. I plan to fill everything back in with compacted crushed concrete and get everything organic out of there.

Yeah...just keep at it you'll get it out. This is just an observation on my part but trees are easier to remove with root ball intact when they are standing and not sawed off. It takes a pretty good sized machine with a lot of break out force to pop a stump that sized out of the ground. You'll just have to work on one side and get as far under the stump as you can then work your way around and under the root ball until you get enough dirt removed where the stump itself is light enough for you little machine to be able to handle.

When I started my barn the site was full of huge oak and pine trees. I didn't have enough money to hire someone with a track loader or excavator to clear my lot so If it was to be cleared it had to be pretty much cleared by hand. It took me from late Aug. through all of the winter and into March of the next year to get all those trees out of the ground and the stumps burned. Some of them were so big all I could do was pull them over and burn the stumps right where they fell several times to finally get them light enough to be able to move them. Then before I could ever burn them I had to stand there for a day, sometimes longer with a pick and shovel removing as much of the dirt as I could. Dirt doesn't burn too well and on top of that I needed all that dirt to fill the massive hole that was left in the ground.

I got all those trees out with a 60' long piece of 1/2" cable, a couple of 20' log chains, a few heavy nylon straps, and my trusty 044 stihl chainsaw. Oh and I forgot, my old 1996 Bronco that I used to pull these big trees over with. Pulling them over wasn't too bad it was the moving them around once they were over that was hard on the poor ol' girl. But I got it done and so will you. You just have to stay with it:thumbsup:

Oh.....and I like the idea of the crushed concrete for fill material. That stuff works really well and in most cases it's a lot cheaper than crushed stone. Just make sure that if you are going to have plumbing or conduit under the floor get that in before you raise the grade up to sub grade level. it will be a lot easier to trench the piping and conduit in the dirt than it will be through that stuff once it sets up. I would build the whole pad with it to within a couple inches of sub grade then use sand, stone dust, or light crushed stone to do your fine grading with. It's much easier to do your finish grading with than that broken concrete is. Oh....and you may already may know this but just in case be aware of the pieces of rebar and chopped up pieces of reinforcing wire that will come with the crushed concrete it's h@ll on rubber tires. It's pretty easy to see and pick to up just keep an eye out for it.

 

[LT1Pat]

I definitely should have left more height but I had a few reasons why I cut it there. It was very important that the tree fell a certain direction so I needed the leverage from the bucket on the tractor to do the final push. I also wanted to use the wood to make slabs out of. I may plunge some noodles in the trunk so that I can place another trunk inside the bigger trunk to get my leverage back.

Yeah...just keep at it you'll get it out. This is just an observation on my part but trees are easier to remove with root ball intact when they are standing and not sawed off. It takes a pretty good sized machine with a lot of break out force to pop a stump that sized out of the ground. You'll just have to work on one side and get as far under the stump as you can then work your way around and under the root ball until you get enough dirt removed where the stump itself is light enough for you little machine to be able to handle.

When I started my barn the site was full of huge oak and pine trees. I didn't have enough money to hire someone with a track loader or excavator to clear my lot so If it was to be cleared it had to be pretty much cleared by hand. It took me from late Aug. through all of the winter and into March of the next year to get all those trees out of the ground and the stumps burned. Some of them were so big all I could do was pull them over and burn the stumps right where they fell several times to finally get them light enough to be able to move them. Then before I could ever burn them I had to stand there for a day, sometimes longer with a pick and shovel removing as much of the dirt as I could. Dirt doesn't burn too well and on top of that I needed all that dirt to fill the massive hole that was left in the ground.

I got all those trees out with a 60' long piece of 1/2" cable, a couple of 20' log chains, a few heavy nylon straps, and my trusty 044 stihl chainsaw. Oh and I forgot, my old 1996 Bronco that I used to pull these big trees over with. Pulling them over wasn't too bad it was the moving them around once they were over that was hard on the poor ol' girl. But I got it done and so will you. You just have to stay with it:thumbsup:

 

[texasranger556]

Yeah...just keep at it you'll get it out. This is just an observation on my part but trees are easier to remove with root ball intact when they are standing and not sawed off. It takes a pretty good sized machine with a lot of break out force to pop a stump that sized out of the ground. You'll just have to work on one side and get as far under the stump as you can then work your way around and under the root ball until you get enough dirt removed where the stump itself is light enough for you little machine to be able to handle.

When I started my barn the site was full of huge oak and pine trees. I didn't have enough money to hire someone with a track loader or excavator to clear my lot so If it was to be cleared it had to be pretty much cleared by hand. It took me from late Aug. through all of the winter and into March of the next year to get all those trees out of the ground and the stumps burned. Some of them were so big all I could do was pull them over and burn the stumps right where they fell several times to finally get them light enough to be able to move them. Then before I could ever burn them I had to stand there for a day, sometimes longer with a pick and shovel removing as much of the dirt as I could. Dirt doesn't burn too well and on top of that I needed all that dirt to fill the massive hole that was left in the ground.

I got all those trees out with a 60' long piece of 1/2" cable, a couple of 20' log chains, a few heavy nylon straps, and my trusty 044 stihl chainsaw. Oh and I forgot, my old 1996 Bronco that I used to pull these big trees over with. Pulling them over wasn't too bad it was the moving them around once they were over that was hard on the poor ol' girl. But I got it done and so will you. You just have to stay with it

Oh.....and I like the idea of the crushed concrete for fill material. That stuff works really well and in most cases it's a lot cheaper than crushed stone. Just make sure that if you are going to have plumbing or conduit under the floor get that in before you raise the grade up to sub grade level. it will be a lot easier to trench the piping and conduit in the dirt than it will be through that stuff once it sets up. I would build the whole pad with it to within a couple inches of sub grade then use sand, stone dust, or light crushed stone to do your fine grading with. It's much easier to do your finish grading with than that broken concrete is. Oh....and you may already may know this but just in case be aware of the pieces of rebar and chopped up pieces of reinforcing wire that will come with the crushed concrete it's h@ll on rubber tires. It's pretty easy to see and pick to up just keep an eye out for it.

Not sure if you had a pressure washer and/or water available, but I've used the "red" tip which is the smooth bore one to blast out dirt from stumps before burning them. You can stand back about 10 feet and still be effective, but inevitably will get covered in dirt/mud in the process.